Saturday, September 23, 2017

7 Crazy Ways Conservatives Are Secretly Just Centrists

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I’m deep enough into talking about the cultural war, and its various nooks and crannies, that I might as well keep going. In fact this whole endeavor kind of reminds me of a line from Macbeth. The line comes after Macbeth has killed King Duncan, and it has him reflecting that he has gone so far with his scheme that it’s basically just as easy to keep killing people as it would be to go back and undo the damage. Or as Shakespeare has him say:


I am in blood Stepped in so far that, should I wade no more, Returning were as tedious as go o'er.


I don’t think I’m killing people, in fact one of my primary purposes has been talking people out of violence. But it does sometimes feel like a grim business to talk about these sorts of things. Also as I have said, even if it (hopefully) isn’t a real war it definitely feels like one at times.


As long as I’m going to continue writing in this vein, I find that there’s more that I want to say about the Moderate Manifesto I mentioned last week. Primarily I want to continue talking about how the current narrative has been wrenched so far to the left that everything the author claims as moderate positions are actually things the average conservative would be overjoyed with. I do this for two reasons:


1- These are all good ideas and need as broad a distribution as possible


2- To illustrate how completely the left is winning without most people noticing. And especially to counter the idea that the left needs to win faster.


For this post, I’d like continue talking about the article by looking at his list of the seven assumptions and attitudes which characterize centrism.


The first is:


Mistrust and disdain for extreme proposals and actions. Innovative ideas and political proposals shouldn’t be discouraged, but those that require radical changes to the current status quo should be moderated to appeal to a broad constituency. Extreme proposals are often wrong, but even when they are correct, they require careful consideration and slow implementation. Violent action is almost always wrong and counterproductive, as is curbing basic freedoms that allow liberal societies to flourish.


Right off the bat it’s important to point something out about the article and the list. The author has this habit of using the extreme libertarian wing of the right to provide the examples he uses for misbehavior by the right as a whole. I would argue that this amounts to essentially a straw man. And the first point is an excellent example of how it works.


Quick name the most extreme right wing proposal you can think of… Were you able to come up with even one? It wouldn’t surprise me if you couldn’t, particularly if you eliminate libertarian fantasies. Even assuming that you could, how likely is it to actually become reality (this is why we eliminate all the libertarian fantasies). Finally, if by some miracle it did come to pass, how long would you have to go back in time before it wasn’t “extreme conservative policy”, but something the majority of people took for granted without even having to think about it?


Let’s take a couple of examples:


Abortion, specifically overturning Roe v. Wade- Is the idea that we should turn abortion back over to the states really that extreme? Remember that Roe v. Wade didn’t make abortion legal, it removed the ability of the states to make it illegal. If for some reason this still strikes you as being extreme, what are the chances of it actually happening? As I said in a previous post, we had a Republican President, a Republican controlled congress, and seven of the nine judges on the Supreme Court were appointed by Republicans, from 2003-2005 and Roe v. Wade sailed through that period unscathed. Finally if it did happen it wouldn’t be reverting us to the dark ages, we’d be reverting to 1973.


That’s a cultural issue, what about a financial issue like eliminating Medicare and Medicaid? First, while this may or may not be an extreme issue, it’s extreme enough that no one actually favors eliminating it, they mostly just want to privatize it. Given that we’re 20 Trillion in debt, and those two programs consume roughly 25% of the budget is that so extreme? I’ve already talked about the chances of it actually happening, but additionally recall that the same Republican President and Republican Congress I just mentioned not only didn’t get rid of it they added to it with the Medicare drug benefit. And finally if we did eliminate both of them in their entirely we’d be going all the way back to 1965… and I understand 50 years seems like a long time, but trust me it’s really not.


All of this is to say that the only extreme proposals which have a realistic chance of being implemented, and would therefore be of concern to the centrist, are almost entirely in the domain of the left.


Moving to the second assumption of centrism:


Mistrust of grand political theories or systems. Societies and polities are incredibly complicated and our understanding of the way social systems and human nature interact is excruciatingly limited. Grand theories are almost always incorrect, and they encourage dogmatism and extremism. Utopianism is perhaps the most dangerous and seductive kind of grand theory. Ideas that require significant harm today to bring about a better tomorrow are particularly pernicious. Uncertainty about the future requires humility and a commitment to order and well-being in the here and now.


This is another place where he uses libertarianism as his boogieman on the right, despite the fact that, before the 2016 election, the Libertarian Presidential Candidate never got more than 1% of the vote, and even in 2016 it was only 3.28%. Because, once again, we’re asking essentially the same questions: Beyond libertarianism, what are the grand political theories the centrist should worry about from the right? How extreme are these theories, really? And how much chance do they have of actually being implemented? Take an example like smaller government. Even if we grant that it’s a grand, unproven, conservative political theory (and not strictly libertarian). And even if we place this theory in the extreme category because of the harm it causes to those who rely on the government, where is the evidence that there’s the slightest danger that it will ever happen? Look at this chart of government spending and notice that first off there are only ever the tiniest dips, and that secondly there’s no evidence that when Republicans control congress that there is any discernable effect on spending.


Moving on to another example, people will often talk about the conservative hostility to public education, and during every presidential election one or more of the candidates will mention getting rid of the Department of Education. This has been going on since 1981. And here we are 36 years later and despite Republican Presidents being in power for 20 of those 36 years, it’s still going strong.


On the other hand utopianism abounds on the left. Communism is of course the largest and deadliest example, but there’s also the utopian fantasies I mentioned in my last post including the idea that all cultures are equal, or that all people are essentially equal, or that we can allow functionally unlimited immigration. Speaking of which let’s move on to his third centrist assumption:


Skepticism about the goodness of human nature. Although our understanding of human nature is limited, the best evidence, scientific and historical, suggests that humans are often parochial, tribal, and prone to violence. This does not mean that humans are unremittingly “sinful” or wicked. They are not. At times, they are peaceful and cooperative. But peace and harmony among disparate cultural, ethnic, and religious groups is an exception, not a rule. Political and cultural systems must deal with humans as they exist and to understand their basic propensities. Excessive optimism about human nature has often led to tragedy. And the current political system, whatever its failures, is often wise because it has been conditioned by years of slow experimentation with real humans. A decent society in the world is worth 1,000 utopias in the head.


This assumption, more than pervious two, appears specifically directed at the left. Though I think he ended up burying the lede. In particular I’m talking about this sentence, “But peace and harmony among disparate cultural, ethnic, and religious groups is an exception, not a rule.” I agree, and I think it’s possible, even likely that at least part of the resistance to immigration comes from an awareness of this fact. I would further argue that taking an immigration rate which is near the historic maximum (in percentage terms, the absolute numbers are unprecedented) and combining it with a progressive ideology which encourages resistance to assimilation is a bad idea.


On this point, at least, the author appears to agree, going on to say later in the article:


Take immigration as one example. It is an exceedingly complicated issue and any comprehensive immigration policy will include painful tradeoffs. If the rate of legal immigration is restricted, then many ambitious and morally upstanding people will be denied a chance to join thriving societies to fulfill their potentials. On the other hand, if the rate of legal immigration is dramatically expanded, then it will cause continued social and cultural disruption, resentment, and quite possibly lower wages.


There are many good-natured people on both sides of this debate. However, many on the Left not only disagree with restrictive immigration laws, they denounce those who support them.


This last point he brings up, about the denunciations, is a theme that has run through all of my posts on politics. The left has been very effective at not only denouncing certain forms of speech (see for instance, the pull back from using the term “illegal” with reference to immigration) but has also rendering certain discussions completely off limits (see my post about the Overton Window). What follows from this, is a situation where the left doesn’t win the battle of ideas, so much as declare the battle over and themselves the victors while the other side remains on the field. Or to put it another way they don’t win the debate they rule the subject too evil to even consider debating. Which takes me to his fourth assumption:


Desire to seek compromise and form large coalitions. Good governance and social harmony require at least an implicit consensus among the governed. Policy proposals that veer from this consensus, even if ultimately correct, threaten to alienate people and foment discontent. It is therefore crucially important to win a battle of ideas before implementing a policy that significantly changes the current status quo. This is best done by appealing to common values and bipartisanship.


You have probably seen the chart which shows the increasing polarization of politics and the lack of any moderate middle at the congressional level. On this point, at least, there is plenty of blame to go around, and I suspect that here is where I would get the most pushback if I claimed that political polarization was mostly an attribute of the left. And, it is indeed the case, that when you look at something like the debt ceiling debate and the past brinksmanship involved there (though recall that I mentioned the national debt as one place where moderation has contributed to the mess) that Republicans have been very bad at compromising. You also have a Republican primary system which increasingly rewards the most extreme candidate, meaning people are elected having specifically pledged to avoid compromise. All of this is true, and there is certainly vast room for the Republicans to improve. But once we move beyond that, we end up in an area the left is particularly bad at, building consensus.


I mentioned this already as a problem in my post about Confederate Monuments. As it turns out a majority of people want them left alone. In other words the consensus is to do the exact opposite of what’s happening. We saw the same thing with Same Sex Marriage (SSM). It was defeated over and over again when put to a vote, but then rather than waiting for public opinion to shift and a consensus to emerge, the left resorted to legalizing it through the judiciary. Based on the latest polling I think if they had waited just a few more years they would have been able to achieve consensus, win at the ballot box and avoid both the appearance of judicial activism and some degree of discontent. Might SSM still be illegal in Utah? Sure, it might, but it’d be legal nearly everywhere else. And I imagine that even in Utah there’d be something like a civil union. Would the harm really have been that great to wait a few more years? Maybe so, but if I’m underestimating the harm, I think people are even more likely to underestimate the damage that comes from not forming a consensus and routing around the ballot box. And I think this is exactly the point the author is making.


Moving on to his fifth assumption:


Pragmatic emphasis on science, evidence, and truth. Because societies are exquisitely complicated, the best social policies are arrived at through slow and careful experimentation, not dogma. Although science cannot solve all social problems, it is the best instrument we have for measuring the success or failure of particular policies. It is important, therefore, to protect vigilantly free speech and free inquiry so that the best ideas are rigorously debated in the public forum. Political ideologies tend to blind people to the best policies. One should not seek a “conservative” answer to poverty or a “liberal” answer to immigration. One should seek the best answer. It is highly unlikely that any political party has a monopoly on truth.


I suppose some people might claim that it’s not the last point which represents the biggest indictment of the right, it’s this one. I mean certainly you’ve heard of intelligent design and young earth creationism! Yes, I have heard of those things, but despite that I still think from a moderate perspective the left has a bigger problem with this than the right, despite things like intelligent design. I’m sure that some of you are wondering how I ever arrived at that conclusion. The most significant factor, for me, is the widespread censorship of science which is perceived to have a any sort of rightward bias. And a great example of this censorship is the recent incident with James Damore and Google. That incident is also something of a minefield, so I don’t intend to get too deep into things (though if there’s enough interest I might in future post). But I’m on firm ground to say that the science of gender differences is not settled science. There is plenty of evidence for exactly the kind of disparities Damore was talking about. It is an open question (actually less open than Damore’s opponents think, but that’s precisely my point.)


It is true that there are many Republicans and conservatives, and other members of the “right” who are anti-science. There may even be more of them than on the left, but as is so often the case the attacks by the Right are completely ineffective. Yes, as I mentioned there are creationists, but what have they actually done to slow down science? Where are the actual casualties? Point me to a study that was killed by creationists, or a professor who was fired by them. It just isn’t a thing.


Moving on to his sixth assumption:


A healthy admiration for patriotism and a distrust of identity politics. Nation states, although not without flaws, are one of the few social vehicles capable of forging broad identities not based on parochial tribal markers such as race or religion. They allow individuals to share in a large collective group enterprise that is admirably committed to a creed rather than ancestry. Although patriotism can be dangerous, it can also be salubrious. Identity politics tend to divide people and create bitter factions that compete for their perceived interests. Because humans are naturally tribal, this factionalism is easy to create and dangerous for a broader cooperative union among dissimilar peoples.


Now we’re back to issues where the right has a natural advantage. I once heard that a quick and easy way to determine whether someone was on the right or the left was to ask them whether they thought America was the Greatest Country on Earth (i.e. American Exceptionalism). If they said yes, they were conservative, if they said no they were liberal. Which is to say that the right has a near monopoly on patriotism, while the left has a monopoly on identity politics, both these things putting the right squarely on the side of things the author is encouraging. Out of the two I’d like to focus on identity politics. Not only do most of the people on the right think they’re a bad idea, and not only do moderates, like this guy, think they’re a bad idea, but increasingly even on the left people are starting to realize how corrosive and divisive they are.


One of the themes which has run through the last several posts, is the idea of what’s an acceptable political tactic and what’s unacceptable. And of course while there are (I hope) some absolutes when discussing this, there is also the principal that if you start employing a tactic it’s going to be really difficult to keep your adversary from using the same tactic. That is one of the big problems with identity politics, you can’t spend decades emphasizing the importance of black or latino or gay identity and not eventually have people decide that they should emphasis their white or European or straight identity. If anything, I’m surprised it’s taken this long. But once the genie was out of the bottle it was always going to be difficult to put it back in, especially if one side continues to insist on using the genie to grant wishes, while claiming that any attempt to do the same thing by the other side is literally the worst thing ever.


And for his seventh and final assumption:


A steadfast dedication to rule of law and fidelity to constitutional principles. The rule of law is one of the greatest and most fragile accomplishments of Western Civilization. It creates a sense of fairness and protects citizens from the whims of their leaders. It should be lauded and guarded against possible corrosion. And although highly educated men and women might not need base appeals to authority (“Madison wrote X, Y, and Z”), society is not comprised of only highly educated men and women. The prejudices of the people require attention and cannot be disregarded. Having a written document (or legacy of laws and principles that are venerated) that inspires reverence helps insure the preservation of the rule of law.


This is yet another thing I’ve been harping on for quite a while. And yet one more area where there is no difference between the author’s definition of centrism and modern conservatism. We see this in the DACA debate, and in the immigration debate as a whole, and I think we also see it in the subject of judicial activism. Whatever you think of the idea of a living Constitution, it’s indisputable that the right has far more concern for constitutional fidelity than the left. And the left’s hostility to First Amendment protections, under the guise of combating hate speech is only making things worse.


Just barely I used the term “modern conservatism”, and when I did so, I realized I may have too hastily glossed over the many sins conservatives were historically guilty of, and the many ways in which what I just said was not accurate (or at least less accurate) historically. This is all true, but we’re talking about a moderate way out of the current crisis, and using these historical issues as a permanent cudgel with which to beat the right, or worse, using past excesses by the right to justify current excesses by the left only deepens the crisis.


I know that if you’ve read this blog with any frequency you’ve probably come to the conclusion that I’m unrepentantly conservative, but I hope that over the course of the last few episodes I’ve show that the left has gone so far, and gotten so extreme in it’s quest for victory and a progressive ideological utopia, that the moderate course is the conservative course.





If you’re a conservative, you should donate because I just showed how conservatives are currently on the right side of everything. If you’re a moderate you should donate, because I just spent an entire post lauding the virtues of moderation. And if you’re a liberal you should donate because I did nothing but malign you and this is your chance to prove me wrong.

8 comments:

  1. There are other ways than just creationism that conservatives ignore science when it suits them. Two most often cited by the Left include climate change and stern cell research. While stem cell research is based on an ethical concern, I've frequently heard conservatives bend their understanding of the science to comport with their political views. "It's all hype anyway, there's nothing they can't do without using embryos." It's important to distinguish "I could make this sound less science-denying" from "actual on-the-ground partisans of this type hold this view because..."

    With climate change specifically (or environmentalism in general) the arguments I generally hear from my conservative friends often deny the evidence outright or cry foul because conservatives didn't contribute to the research. While a moderate position might be, "the science is sound, but we ought to be cautious about the fact that every model has consistently overstated the degree of observed warming," the conservative argument is usually some brand of "there is no real warming going on." That claim is factually at odds with observation.

    I'm not saying the Left isn't also guilty of ignoring sound scientific evidence when it suits them. Examples there are legion. Abortion (conservatives draw a scientifically defensible definition of 'human life we have a moral obligation to care about', usually conception and less frequently my preferred line at implantation; liberals use the definition, 'whatever suits my political view'), GMO (Bill Nye hilariously did a misinformation episode on this one!), gender (as you pointed out), marriage (despite 40+ years of social scientists trying to prove their theory that a 'trial marriage' - i.e. living together - is superior to direct marriage in ensuring relationship stability, they've consistently demonstrated the exact opposite; yet the theory still holds despite the evidence), etc.

    Both sides tend to ignore the best evidence when it doesn't fit their political views, but where the Left will malign research they don't agree with and punish the researchers, the Right will cut research funding to prevent the research from happening in the first place. Both sides are equally guilty here, and I often find actual moderates as the only clear-thinking people in the room where science is discussed.

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    1. These are good examples, and as I said, twisting science is something where there's a lot of blame to go around. I was mostly trying to illustrate that it's not the sole domain of the right. Also I continue to be of the opinion that whatever twisting of science the right does, that there ends up being very little actual harm. You mention that the Right cuts funding to prevent research from happening in the first place, and as far as stem cells you have a point, but as far as climate change, while it is true that there is a lot of money on the side of denial, and much of that goes into stopping research, that money is more properly understood to come from the pro-business faction rather than coming from the idealogical right. And while there is some overlap there, it's not the same.

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  2. Not sure you’re being sufficiently rigorous with conservatism here. Some counterpoints:

    1. What about on defense? The Right recently lead us into two wars and aggressively pursued the belief that nation-building-after-military-victory can spread democracy. This policy was central to the Bush foreign policy throughout much of the 2000's. It was incredibly costly, and we're still feeling its effects.

    2. What about the Right's solid-but-not-extreme views? Take two ideals: "regulation is about quantity not quality, there’s too much of it", and "taxes are mostly harmful and there’s too much of it". A moderate would argue there are clearly too many regulations that are neither targeted to solve problems without creating greater harm, nor are they vetted to ensure they accomplish their objectives. A conservative would argue that in most cases the regulation should just be removed altogether, since the market will correct bad behavior. Compare, "regulations are bad as part of my grand systems theory" and "consider each regulation on its merits versus the harm done."

    Ditto, but with "regulation" replaced by "tax".

    3. What about conservatives' trust of markets? They’re not likely to get a completely unregulated market in any foreseeable time horizon, but neither will liberals get full-blown communism (both theories have seen major matching movements). But the idea of "the market will take care of it" such that bad actors will be reined-in automatically by their own self-interest, and a general skepticism of the whole concept of market failure, strongly influences how conservatives govern. It’s at odds with a general skepticism about the goodness of human nature.

    4. Agree the debt ceiling is an example of no-compromise by the left. Democrats spent the last 8 years denouncing the Right and poisoning wells. But now the Right has embraced reciprocity. Still no budget. Filibuster still gone – even worse, the Right killed the filibuster for SCOTUS nominations in order to push their guy through. How is that compromise? “But the Democrats were voting as a bloc to block him!" Republicans had just done the same thing for a YEAR for that exact position! At least Democrats waited under Obama, though it's hard to say why. Forgot to trash the SCOTUS filibuster while trashing the other one? Thought Hillary had 2016 locked? Bad political strategy? Scruples (less likely)?

    6. The Right engaged in (and Trump won partly from) demagoguery against immigrants and outsiders. Although it's rational that the US restrict immigration and that we put the interests of its current citizens ahead of prospective citizens, deportation and border security are not sufficient to deal with the people who are currently in the US illegally. Security will never be perfect, and the next immigrant will adversely impact someone in the US; these are not arguments against doing something for illegal immigrants and should not be a precondition to compromise."

    Conservatives also routinely denounce college students/professors, welfare recipients, "costal liberals", etc. If the idea comes from a group they dislike, it doesn't matter whether that idea has merit. That’s identity politics.

    7. Both sides cite rule of law/the constitution when it suits them, and eschew it when it doesn’t. Liberals are all over their constitutional credentials when they rail against conservatives for not seeking approval to start a war, but they don't mind denouncing it when it stops their policies. Same with rule of law.

    Conservatives talk like they respect both. But when it comes to actual adherence to the principle, " respect for the Constitutional and the rule of law means I won't get my way sometimes", they aren’t as principled. Examples include: illegal detentions, killing American citizens accused of terrorism overseas without a trial, the FISA court, bulk surveillance, torture, due process protections, etc.

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    1. 1- This is a fair point, but I think two things need to be considered. 1) The wars were more a neocon invention than what I would call true conservatism. And certainly when you talk about conservatism these days you're largely talking about a movement which is a backlash against neoconservatism. 2) I am convinced, that given the hysteria of the post-9/11 world, that if Gore had got those extra 500 votes he needed in Florida, and become president, that we still would have gone into Iraq. Reflect how often Clinton launched cruise missiles at Iraq before 9/11...

      2- While I think reasonable people could disagree on where to draw the line, I think regulation and tax utopia are the kind of thing I would lump under the libertarian banner, and I mentioned their utopian leanings. But I would certainly agree that when Republicans talk about lower taxes leading to greater revenue that this is pretty squarely in the realm of Utopia.

      3- See my last point about where to divide conservatives from libertarians. Also recall that Clinton repealed Glass-Steagall and kept Greenspan (a fan of Ayn Rand) as the Chairman of the Fed for his whole time in office. So I don't think trust in the markets is a specifically conservative phenomenon.

      4- I think, if I understand your point here, that we agree.

      6- I would certainly agree that the Right engages in identity politics, but as the kids say, "They (the Left) started it!" Also most of the categories you mention are somewhat idealogical, as opposed to categories like race.

      7- I have seen a lot of conservatives level criticisms over the fact we no longer declare war, and recall that Truman, a Democrat was the first to really go to war without getting a declaration of war. Also on the other extrajudicial stuff, remember that Obama despite his promises never closed Guantanamo.

      All this said, I think we're mostly on the same page. We need more moderation. And I will continue to maintain that, net, these days the Right is more moderate than the left.

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    2. I appreciate your comments, and I think this is an interesting idea, but I remain unconvinced. I see a general No-True-Scotsman argument here. A conservative who has reservations on how much taxes should be cut, thinks regulations do good if properly tailored, takes issue with the Patriot Act, and opposed Iraq/Afghanistan DURING the Bush administration is really a conservative-leaning centrist. Obviously these are artificial labels. But when a conservative says, "I believe in reducing regulations, but this evidence suggests these specific regulations are good and should be strengthened" that person moderated their views based on centrist principles. Same with a liberal who says, "I believe in conservation of nature, but I understand this should be done with gradual shifts rather than big emergency-alert projects" that person moderated their views based on centrist principles. That's the point of the Centrist Manifesto: for centrists, there are different principles at work than those working on the L/R part of the spectrum. Centrists aren’t just people with weak convictions. Indeed, centrist values often get you to a different place - and for different reasons. Conservatism is not the same thing. It's not that conservatives can't admire and adopt centrist values. But when they do they become more centrist and less conservative.

      1. Fair points, all, and hawk/dove historically switches parties from time to time. Again, we risk NTS fallacy if we call the 8 Bush years insufficiently conservative. I remember the primary campaigns of the 2000's and there weren’t many voices critical of Iraq/Afghanistan. The dream of spreading democracy was popular. With conservatives! The policy's failure caused it to fall out of favor with the party, not a principled disdain for radical policy prescriptions. And just because libertarians make calls to "abolish the Fed" and "eliminate the department of education" doesn't mean conservatives don't share some of those big ideas. Meanwhile, conservatives call for the mass deportation of illegal immigrants, building a multi-billion dollar boarder wall, exclusion of immigrants based on religion, increased protectionism and eliminating FTAs, etc.

      2. Lowering taxes can lead to increased revenue. How and when to cause this is not as well understood as the Right would like to believe. This is a grand political theory believed in and applied by conservatives. If only staunch libertarians campaign on aggressively reducing taxes and regulations, I'm not sure who qualifies as conservative.

      3. NTS again. These are policies and ideas you'll see in Republican party platforms and preached from the bully pulpit at CPAC.

      6. Agreed on the ideological/categorical distinction. However, "Because humans are naturally tribal, this factionalism is easy to create and dangerous for a broader cooperative union among dissimilar peoples." While it's true that the Left owns the destructive domain of "identity politics", the Right (and all US political parties since Hamilton/Jefferson) frequently immerses itself in exactly the kind of divisive factionalism Washington warned of in his farewell address. That’s not centrist.

      7. To wear the label, "Champion of the Constitution" you need to do better than blindly accept the sins of previous administrations while the other side does the same. The Right pushes the envelope more toward 'discretion for my friends' and less Rule of Law and Inviolate Constitutional Protections. So does the left. The two parties just carve out convenient exceptions differently. Saying 'Democrats do it, too' is a tacit acceptance of the argument that the Centrist position is unique, and not a halfway point between Left and Right.

      I agree that the left is far from centrist. But I think the Right is also far from centrist. We can debate to what extreme for each side. But both parties could do with a more centrist influence at the moment.

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    3. I almost mentioned NTS in my last reply, since I could already see where it would be easy to accuse me of that. And I certainly am walking pretty close to the line, though I think drawing the line between libertarians and conservatives is easier than you think. Particularly if we restrict ourself to moral issues. What I was primarily going for is the idea that:

      1- The Left is both more broadly, and more deeply radical than the right. If you're a moderate, then left side of the scale is more out of balance than the right. But it would be wrong to claim that there is no extremism on the right. But as I point out in the Overton Window post, what's considered extreme today may have been perfectly mainline, even on left side of things 40 years ago.

      2- Centrism, as you say, is it's own thing, but if you were to take the average person on the Right and the average person on the Left you would find that person on the Right has more in common with the Centrist than the average person on the left.

      3- And of course there was a general advocacy for moderation in general. If you read my Gozilla Trudges Back and Forth post, I worry a lot about any civil discord, regardless of who is more at fault.

      As far as your individual responses:

      1- I understand, once again, that I tread in the area of NTS, but the 2000's were a period of Neo-Con ascendency, I could certainly point you to conservative writers who were bitterly opposed to intervening, and certainly to spreading democracy and nation building. Which is not to say that you don't have a point, just that it may not have flip-flopped quite as much as you think.

      2- I think we're in agreement here, I mentioned cutting taxes to boost revenue as being a broadly conservative delusion.

      3- In part, when we're in this neck of the woods, we're talking less about the left-right axis than we are about the Wall Street-Populist axis. And I believe I've said that both parties are in thrall to the Wall Street side of things.

      6- True, and it'd be nice if we could get both sides to turn it down.

      7- It was never my intent to argue that Centrism is just conservatism in disguise, or that Centrism didn't have a unique point of view. But more to point out areas where Centrism and Conservatism overlap. In particular I wanted to point out that despite people declaring any opposition to be racist, that it's actually a reasonably Centrist position in addition to being something conservatives latch on to.

      I continue to maintain that the Left is currently objectively less moderate than the Right, but I would certainly allow, that the Right is less moderate than I have painted them to be.

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    4. I'm trying to be as fair as possible to the Left, the side that I'm most inclined to be biased against (not that I don't have significant complaints against the Right). Friends on the Left complain about a severe rightward shift and that they're losing ground, and I try to see it from their perspective. You're right that on certain social issues, such as gay marriage and abortion, among others, the Left has posted solid victories and should be able to declare as much - except they continue to complain about the residual resistance instead. But what about the Right? It's somehow questionable whether Edward Snowden was a good guy or a bad guy. As the Left sees it, the Right has shifted the Overton window in their direction so far that the Left has to fight to get a word in at the table. There’s a major news scandal and mass surveillance hysteria and yet the result is MORE surveillance! Same with gun control where despite the left amplifying every mass shooting, most local jurisdictions and SCOTUS have loosened gun control in recent years. Or take Trump's executive order stating that in order to implement any one new regulation, two old regulations must be eliminated. My understanding is that this has already significantly decreased the overall number of regulations. And I'm sure there are more instances that I'm blind to. To the Left we’re entering the Wild West.

      It seems we go through cycles where an idea is debated and eventually one side wins the day wholesale. And sometimes we come back to it years later, but only if it has failed in some specific way, otherwise both sides accept it and move on. Obvious examples include slavery and Jim Crow. But I could also cite SCOTUS claiming judicial review, or the concept of states as separate quasi-national entities versus national supremacy.

      An example of a reversal is social Darwinism (from the Left), which was practically a religion and anyone who wanted to do science or policy had to bow to the clear consensus that Science Doesn't Lie and it's prescriptions are Objectively True. Then some German social Darwinists in the 1930's and 1940's got to do what EVERYONE ELSE WAS THINKING and when the world found out about it the philosophy died on the vine. Or take free trade (from the Right), which was hotly debated for years in the 20th century, but by the end of the 90's both parties accepted it as a clearly established Principle of Governance. It wasn't until this most recent election campaign that a movement to reverse (not just slow down) FTAs gained mainstream credibility and a voice.

      I think about my own biases, and try to subvert my natural tendency to see victories on my side as either 'rolling back the excesses of the other guys' or 'regression to the objectively true optimum of where a rational society will naturally settle'. I think I have a blind spot for my side's excesses, and unless I deliberately stare at it I don't see how much what I think of as victories for civilization, the other side views as 'celebrating in the end zone' or a horrific massacre of True Principles on the altar of extreme political madness.

      Maybe you're right and there isn't a perfect balance between the two sides. Actually, I'm inclined to believe that on many issues there isn't a balance at all. But I'm skeptical that this balance always and forever leans Left. I think many times it leans Right. Maybe there are more right than left, but it’s not a monolith. And I think it helps me understand people I disagree with better when I realize they don't see themselves as winning - even when they are! They see themselves as holding the line of civilization, just barely, against the unthinkable from the other side.

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    5. I agree with everything you say about questioning your own biases, and I'm sure I could do better at that.

      Looking at specific examples of the right winning you offer up 1) Surveillance, 2) Gun Control, 3) Trumps Regulation Order.

      1) I'm not sure that I would classify Surveillance as primarily an issue on the right. I think it probably leans that way, but there is also the way in which any organization, will naturally attempt to grab power when it can, and absent checks the NSA and CIA would do as much surveillance as technology would allow. And certainly here is one place where the libertarian distinction is important since if anyone is opposed to surveillance it's them. But if you want to claim surveillance is a place where the Right has absolutely won, I wouldn't fight you very hard, particularly since when it comes to the current unrest, it doesn't appear very high on the list.

      2) Gun control is indeed an area where the right has done very well, but it almost seems to be an outlier. And it probably deserves it's own post. You have the combination of very strong constitutional protections, with the one of the most effective advocacy groups (NRA), with a strong contingent of rural voters for whom this is almost their single issue.

      3) I have not heard much about this order, so I'm not sure I'm qualified to talk about it. But in theory this is only a rightward shift if, regulations by themselves are favorable to the left. In theory that's not the case, the mere existence of a regulation should be non-partisan. The fact that more regulations are automatically better for the left, says some disturbing things about the lefts true goals. But beyond all this, I think Trump is an anomaly, and certain of his actions like this one have to be viewed more as Trumpian than Republican.

      As far as social darwinism and I assume eugenics. My understanding was that support for that was relatively bipartisan I mean you had both Teddy Roosevelt and Churchill on the side of that.

      Free trade, is another thing I would put more on the Wall Street/Populist axis than the left right access. Who was the last President before Trump who wasn't enthusiastic about Free Trade?

      I do like your last line, about how everyone see themselves as the last line of defense before they're overwhelmed by the unthinkable. But I also think it's very dangerous to have such an extreme view of things. It's this view that leads the Antifa to beat the crap out of some suspected Nazi because we're so close to becoming fascist. And that's why the through line of all my recent posts has been the need for greater moderation.

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