Support This Blog On Patreon!

Support this Blog!

All I ask is a $1 a month. (But more is great too.) If you find this content to be beneficial, interesting or just a fascinating peek into true insanity please donate.

Saturday, May 5, 2018

Nuclear Power and Winning through Intolerance

If you prefer to listen rather than read, this blog is available as a podcast here. Or if you want to listen to just this post:



Or download the MP3



Last week I talked about Steven Pinker’s book Enlightenment Now: The Case for Reason, Science, Humanism, and Progress. As I mentioned at the time I probably wasn’t doing it justice because that’s just the reality when you try to cover a 500 page book using a 3500 word post. In contrast, this week, rather than trying to cover what amounts to Pinker’s grand unified theory of civilization, I’d like to focus on just one point he brought up.


As I mentioned in the last post, I enjoy Pinker’s books, and find myself largely in agreement with him on most things (long tail risk being my big disagreement) and one of the things I was glad to see him make a strong case for was nuclear power. As I pointed out, Pinker feels that there are really only two existential crises we need to worry about: climate change and nuclear war.  As part of my disagreement with him about long tail risks, I would argue that there are a lot more than just these two, but they are interesting in that they are both issues which are entirely within humanities power to solve, it would just require a lot of coordination. Or rather, it would require a lot of positive coordination. Natural incentives have lead to significant, albeit selfish, coordination on the burning of fossil fuels and to a lesser extent on the building of nukes. But this is equivalent to both prisoners defecting, we need them to both cooperate. But as you might imagine, and as I assume even Pinker would admit, such coordination is hard, and takes a long time. Climate change is interesting because there is a step most countries could take, which requires no cooperation, no signing of any accords, no locking other countries, like China, into specific actions, and which wouldn’t slow down growth or significantly change the way we use energy. Of course I’m talking about nuclear power, and one of the highlights of “Enlightenment Now” was Pinker’s defense of it.


As I said though, Pinker and I share a very different level of concern for long tail risks. Given that he worries less, his advocacy of nuclear power seems obvious. But what about me? How do I get off championing nuclear power? Certainly, it would be very ironic if using nuclear power to combat the potential existential crisis of climate change, lead to the very real existential crisis of full on nuclear war. Accordingly, the first thing we need to discuss is whether nuclear power increases the threat of nuclear weapon proliferation. The answer to that question is that it’s hard to say, this is particularly the case when you’re trying to compare these two separate worlds in their entirety. One where we continue much as we have, with haphazard development of nuclear power, inconsistent policies, and no real plan for the weapons grade plutonium and uranium we already do have (except for using it in weapons.) And another world where we focus on more advanced reactors with much less risk of proliferation (particularly once you start talking about thorium and depleted uranium reactors) and with a pathway to use weapons grade material in places other than weapons. All of which is to say that the risks, are somewhat unknown. But if you really believe that climate change represents an existential crisis (I don’t, but I do think it’s worth taking precautions against) then some level of risk may be unavoidable, and that’s one of the themes I’ll be returning too.


It’s been awhile since I covered asymmetric risks, particularly in terms of fragility vs. antifragility. So as a reminder, one of the key points of this dichotomy is that both costs and benefits can have one of two sets of attributes, they can either be known and limited or they can be unknown and unlimited. If the benefits are known and limited, while the costs are the reverse, then that thing is fragile. If it’s the opposite, unlimited benefits with limited costs, then that thing is antifragile. In theory it’s straightforward, in practice it can be more complicated, particularly with situations where there are lots of competing costs and benefits, with varying levels of severity and probability. As, for example, in the situation I just described, deciding whether to use nuclear power to reduce the risk of climate change.


This is the case even if we assume that nuclear power will entirely prevent climate change. You could argue (and I have) that the cost of climate change, even under the worst case scenario is not unlimited. (I have even argued that the cost of nuclear war is not unlimited, ie that it won’t wipe out humanity permanently and forever.) That said, it would be pretty bad, bad enough that most people would place it the unlimited cost category. Additionally, while I think most people would place climate change in the “very high probability” category, there is still a lot we don’t know.


What about the other side, proliferation brought on by the increased use of nuclear power? On this side, there are two ways proliferation could happen. The first and most likely is that a non-state actor could get their hands on some weapons grade uranium or plutonium. In that case they would still have to use it to make a bomb, which is not impossible, but it’s definitely not trivial either. How many bombs could they make and successfully detonate? I think most people would say one, if they’re lucky, but I guess if we’re looking at the worst case scenario it’s conceivable that they could build perhaps half a dozen. In any case, it’s hard to imagine the number would be more than a handful. And at best they’re equivalent to the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki (crude design, fission not fusion.)


Okay, now let’s say they actually detonate them. Is this bad? Of course! It makes 9/11 into a historical footnote, but, does it end civilization? Not unless we enormously over-react (another comparison to 9/11). And, is the worst case nuclear terrorism as bad the worst case climate change? Probably not, and I think, probability wise, climate change is vastly more likely than nuclear terrorism to boot. Recall that we have had nuclear weapons for quite a while, they passed through the fall of the Soviet Union, and were kept secure for the last 20 years through the height of Islamic-extremism in Pakistan, a majority Muslim country. To return to Pinker, he apparently considers the possibility to be so remote that he doesn’t even bother to mention nuclear weapons in his chapter on terrorism. (At least as far as I recall, and the index backs me up.) As I have already pointed out I am more pessimistic than he is, but I still see multiple hurdles standing between a non-state actor and the acquisition of a nuclear weapon.


The other way proliferation could happen is that a state could use their nuclear power to create nuclear weapons, and they could use it to create far more than one, or six. Obviously this is a concern, and I’m already on record as saying that I don’t think the number of states with nukes will ever go below the number it’s currently at, and further, I think we might see states that previously relied on the US nuclear umbrella getting nukes of their own as Pax Americana fades. All this may happen (contra Pinker) but the question remains will the increased use of nuclear power have anything to do with it? The connection seems tenuous. On the one hand we have North Korea which has nuclear weapons, but no working nuclear reactor. On the other hand we have Japan which has nuclear power, but no nuclear weapons. And if, someday, they decided they needed nuclear weapons, I doubt, at that moment, that the lack of nuclear power would slow them down very much, even if that were the case. At a minimum this seems to suggest that the technology and infrastructure needed to build nuclear weapons is less than that required to build nuclear reactors. And if reactor technology were to be imported I imagine it would be the kind of proliferation resistant reactors I already talked about.


Once we eliminate worries about proliferation, then the case for nuclear power (particularly for those most worried about climate change) becomes pretty solid. But people have concerns about nuclear power beyond just proliferation and as long as we’re on the subject I might as well address them.


The next highest item on the list for most people (and the highest for some) is nuclear waste. And I admit that with my emphasis on low time preference, creating something that’s dangerous for thousands of years is viscerally unappealing to me. But of course it’s important to look behind that initial visceral reaction (something far, far to few do, particularly with this issue) and consider the actual data.


First, it’s not as if radioactive waste is unique in its longevity, we’re creating lots of concentrated  heavy metal waste (eg cadmium, mercury, and maybe you’ve heard of the problems with lead?) which is dangerous essentially forever. Will the Yucca Mountain Repository (should it ever be built, which seems doubtful) be as dangerous in 1000 years as Norilsk, Russia, or even Flint, Michigan, when you consider how inaccessible the waste will be?


Second, and related to the first point, the amount of high level waste created is tiny. Enough so that you don’t need some giant site with armed guards and lasers. In fact one suggestion has been to take the small amount of waste and disperse it rather than concentrating it. For example, mix it with dirt and rocks and refill old uranium mines with it, diluting it enough that the background radiation is at the same level as it was before you mined the uranium.


Finally, one thing that most people don’t consider is that if we’re going to create pollution or waste anyway, it’s best to diversify. I first came across this point in one of Nassim Nicholas Taleb’s books (I don’t recall which one). He pointed out that it is far better to create small amounts of many pollutants than a large amount of only one. You may be wondering why this is. Well as it turns out the harm from toxicity is not linear. To use an example many people would be familiar with, alcohol.  (Not me actually, I had to look it up, I’ve never had a drink.)  A blood alcohol level of 0.1 is drunk, but not ridiculously so, twice that and you’re probably vomiting. Three times that and you’re probably unconscious. Four times that and you’re in a coma and possibly dead. As you can see the harm jumps a huge amount at each step, particularly between 3x and 4x where the harm jumps to infinity (if you’re the person who ended up dying.)


Now of course we don’t exactly know where the big jump is in carbon emissions, if a CO2 level of 500 ppm is 10x as bad as one of 400 ppm (where we are now) and if 600 ppm is 1000x as bad. And that if it ever hit 700 ppm we’d turn into Venus, and all life would be wiped out. But regardless it’s almost certainly non-linear, and since nuclear power (and by extension nuclear waste) would be removing CO2 “off the top” so to speak, you’re looking at trading a pollutant on the low end of the harm curve for the very top of the curve of another pollutant. All of which is another way to say the same thing which has been said since ancient times, that the dose makes the poison. Yes, nuclear waste is bad, but by removing the top end of our CO2 emissions it may be replacing something much, much worse.


Having covered proliferation and nuclear waste, we at last reach the concern potentially shared by the most people, but which has the least basis in reality: a nuclear reactor disaster, a Three Mile Island, a Fukushima or a Chernobyl. Here Pinker and I are entirely on the same page, so I’ll turn things over to him:


[Nuclear power] has a lower carbon footprint than solar, hydro, and biomass, and it’s safer than them, too. The sixty years with nuclear power have seen thirty-one deaths in the 1986 Chernobyl disaster, the result of extraordinary Soviet-era bungling, together with a few thousand early deaths from cancer above the 100,000 natural cancer deaths in the exposed population. The other two famous accidents, at Three Mile Island in 1979 and Fukushima in 2011, killed no one. Yet vast numbers of people are killed day in, day out by the pollution from burning combustibles and by accidents in mining and transporting them, none of which make headlines. Compared with nuclear power, natural gas kills 38 times as many people per kilowatt-hour of electricity generated, biomass 63 times as many, petroleum 243 times as many, and coal 387 times as many--perhaps a million deaths a year. (emphasis on 387 in the original)


Perhaps you’re amazed by these figures or perhaps not, they’ve been available for a long time, and possibly, given the demographics of my readership, you are all entirely unsurprised, but when I look out at the broader world, I can detect nothing which would indicate a recognition of how safe nuclear power actually is. Certainly not among the general population, nor among the politicians, and despite the repeated pleas of desperate need, not even very much among self-professed environmentalists.


Now to be fair even if Fukushima didn’t kill anyone it has proved to be tremendously expensive to clean up, with the latest estimate putting the figure at 21.5 trillion yen, or $188 billion, and I suppose an argument could be made against nuclear power solely from the perspective of cost, and indeed a quick search reveals that this is a very common concern. The question is why is it so expensive to build new plants and to clean up Fukushima. Is it because if we spent $100 billion rather than $188 billion Fukushima would go from a situation where no one died, to a situation where 10,000 people died? If we spent less money on regulating and building nuclear reactors would we go from having two accidents where no one died and one where a few thousand died, to having dozens of accidents and tens of thousands of casualties? (Even if that were the case I think nuclear power would still be ahead of petroleum and coal, and probably even biomass.)


I don’t actually think either of these things would happen, rather I think the word “nuclear” and “radiation” are in the same category as “racist”, words were the reaction engendered is sometimes dramatically out of proportion to the actual harm, and where, if the word sticks, it can make a topic completely off limits. Accordingly, Fukushima isn’t just a disaster, it isn’t another industrial cleanup, it’s a nuclear disaster, and a radioactive cleanup, and no expense should be spared in containing the dangerous waste. But maybe that’s a good thing, no telling what would happen if we just spent a couple of billion slapping some concrete and steel over everything and walked away, with some signs telling people to avoid the area.


Oh wait... that’s basically exactly what happened with Chernobyl which was objectively a far worse accident. Maybe by looking at what happened in the aftermath of that we can get some sense of what might happen if Japan decides to spend less than $188 billion to clean up Fukushima. It doesn’t take much searching to find articles talking in excited terms about the amount of wildlife found in the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone (CEZ). One article declares that it’s a nature reserve. Another mentions that within the CEZ wildlife is flourishing. This was unexpected, in one article from National Geographic I came across, they quote a biologist who “studies chernobyl” (one wonders if his studies have included a visit) as predicting that when the author of the article goes to Chernobyl that he won’t “see any roadkill in the exclusion zone—and would be lucky to hear any birds or see any animals.” Instead the author reports:


Walking along sandy firebreaks used as forest highways...we found the tracks of wolf, moose, deer, badger, and horses. I counted scores of birds: ravens, songbirds, three kinds of birds of prey, and dozens of swans paddling in the radioactive cooling pond.


The article goes on to report that in a study of 14 species of mammals one scientist found no evidence that any of those populations were “suppressed” within the CEZ.


I am sure that there are some health impacts on this wildlife and positive that the CEZ is not without its negative effects. I’m sure that if people were allowed to live there, that there would be higher rates of cancer, among other things. But, also recall, that this is the worst of the disasters, combined with the least cost and effort at cleanup.


In addition to offering a defense of nuclear power, I wanted use this post to examine why it has faced so much resistance. Why haven’t we embraced it, given everything I’ve already mentioned? I would argue that nuclear power is among the best examples of one of modernity’s more distressing trends: veto through intolerance. Or as Taleb describes it, the most intolerant wins. He describes how:


It suffices for an intransigent minority –a certain type of intransigent minority –to reach a minutely small level, say three or four percent of the total population, for the entire population to have to submit to their preferences. Further, an optical illusion comes with the dominance of the minority: a naive observer would be under the impression that the choices and preferences are those of the majority.


Let’s take Yucca Mountain for example. Nearly everyone who’s aware of the problem of high level nuclear waste is in favor of it, and those who aren’t in favor of it can be divided up into two camps, those who don’t care either way, and Nevadans. And the opposition of the Nevadans, who represent less than 1% of the US population was enough to kill it.


I assume much the same thing is happening when we look at the reaction of people to even the very mention of the words, nuclear and radioactive. There is obviously a small minority for whom these words are as garlic to vampires, if not worse. And then there’s the vast majority who really don’t care, but, as Taleb points out, appear, to the naive observer to be concerned as well, and then there’s a few people who actually understand the risk-reward tradeoff (like Pinker, probably) who are in favor of it. To put it in more concrete terms, how much of the $188 billion is being spent to calm the 1% of the population who is the least tolerant? I guarantee it’s far out of proportion to their numbers.


I’m guessing at this point that you can already see where this applies to various social justice causes. And what’s important to point out here, is not the old “Social Justice Warriors be crazy, yo.” But the fact that both the concerns about nuclear power and the concerns about social justice are based on real risks. In the case of nuclear power there is a real risk that expanding our use of it will contribute to proliferation, or that there will be a disaster involving high level waste, or that a nuclear reactor will suffer a meltdown. But for all the reasons I pointed to above, I think these risks are low and worth taking.


The intolerance towards certain kinds of speech, particularly speech related to social justice issues, comes from fear of risk as well. There is a risk it could lead to a recriminalization of homosexuality, or to violence and the resumption of things like lynchings, or we could even end up in a world that was indistinguishable from the Handmaid’s Tale. But all of these risks are tiny. The question is are there any compensating rewards if we continue to support free speech and free expression (even for the alt-right and neo-nazis)? I believe there are, but much like the benefits of nuclear energy, they’re diffuse, and will take a long time to fully be realized.


If we are at a point where the smallest of minorities can veto even the tiniest of risks, what does that mean going forward? We have already seen how this tactic has completely tabled one of the most effective precautions we could take against global warming. What other future risks are we going to ignore in order to address the short-term concerns of various minorities? I know that people like Pinker have basically argued that the future is just going to get increasingly less risky, but this is one of the points I disagree with him on. I think going forward, risks are going to be less frequent (lower volatility) but of greater impact when they do occur (higher fragility). Thus not only are the risks greater, but we will have much less experience in dealing with them when they do occur, add to all of that the ability of frightened minorities to derail the plans of the far-sighted, and there’s ample cause to once again claim, “We are not saved.”






I’m trying to think of some way that I could win through intolerance, but even though the number of people necessary to do that is getting smaller and smaller, I don’t think it’s reached the point where one, slightly weird blogger with a fixation on clever appeals for donations has any leverage, yet.

17 comments:

  1. On benefit of risks that are overly politicized is that large amounts of public attention are more likely to engender a response contemporary with the incident. An oil spill in the middle of the Atlantic gets little response. The same spill off the coast of New Orleans is a major story with an immediate response.

    In other words, would you rather have nuclear, where any disasters would be covered round the clock on CNN and be subject to a Senate investigation? Or would you rather have something else, where problems are diffuser, could go on for decades, and nobody pays attention?

    To the extent public awareness of a problem will make a difference, we should want to bias in favor of more visible risks.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I'm not sure I get which direction you're headed...

      Are you arguing that nuclear faces a huge hurdle because in addition to the veto of intolerance. It's perfectly positioned to have it's risks exaggerated through emphasis by our current media?

      Or are you arguing that from an anti fragile standpoint that nuclear is good because risks are less likely to be covered up, and we're going to react sooner, and solve the problems earlier?

      I gather it's the latter. If so it's a great point, though I think we have to have a system where risks are fixed, not used as an excuse to abandon the entire project.

      Delete
    2. I'm saying in an era of social media you want a system where risks are the most visible. That's how you go from meat packing equipment with ceramic blades to a system where all the blades are high powered jets of water. Engineers find a solution when something like broken blades in their food adversely impacts their PR; and if they don't solve it Congress gets involved (though that's less effective at solving problems and more effective as a deterrent).

      If course, any system with highly visible risks is going to struggle against incumbent technologies with less-visible risks. That's the challenge. I'm saying if we care about safety we should have a strong preference for systems with highly visible risks.

      That's something you may be able to achieve by reversing nuclear policies, except you can't ignore the incentives of incumbents to game the system in the opposite direction.

      Delete
  2. I'm inclined to go push against your narrative. You've confused opposition to nuclear to a lack of investment in nuclear. The graph here, I think, needs to be explained if your hypothesis is to have any hope of survival.

    https://twitter.com/Noahpinion/status/992899059487727616

    People do push against nuclear power. But then I'm not aware of any community that would embrace a giant coal plant being built in their backyard. Even trendy, environmentally conscious communities will oppose offshore wind arms and solar plants if given the chance.

    I think the reason you are not seeing as much nuclear as you would have liked is because you've let your bias in favor of what you see as cool new technology (you do have a classic sci-fi enthused inclination) swamp the fact that economics underlies these decisions. Here are the problems economically:

    1. The price of chicken meat and elephant meat may be the same per pound. But if you want a pound of meat you can't get around the fact that you'll need no less than one full elephant or one chicken to satisfy it. Solar can be installed on thousands of acres or a pocket calculator. Nuclear plants are optimal when they are built to carry huge baseline load but below that threshold we don't have good nuclear designs and many of the risks you cite are minimal only because huge nuclear power plants would presumably be easy to protect against attack or accident.

    2. Nuclear plants are again great for carrying constant baseline load but electric demand is actually mostly variable with huge swings between day and night. The last two decades have seen huge cost declines in the power generation that competes against nuclear. Gas plants, in particular, are adapt at being switched on and off as needed to meet demand surges. Nuclear plants like to be big and always on.

    2.1 Mass battery storage would tilt the market in favor of huge baseline providers. Even coal's carbon profile can be improved if you could easily store huge quantities of off peak production to use during peak demand. While batters have advanced a lot, though, they seem to have lagged behind solar and other forms of power in the innovation threshold.

    3. Investment wise fewer farmers could afford to grow an elephant while many can afford to add more chickens. Individual homeowners are putting up solar plants while gas turbine generators are small and cheap compared to nuclear plants. Nuclear investors need to be able to spend a huge amount of money and wait quite a while to get it back with profits. If long run prices are declining this is more toxic to investors than any group of Greenpeace protesters.

    4. China (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_China). Are we going with the story that anti-nuclear hysteria infects China as well and citizens are powerful enough to keep the gov't from flooding the grid with cheap nuclear when many cities have days when the air is difficult to breath because of coal particles? Your hypothesis would carry more weight if more authoritarian gov'ts or even different cultures were indifferent to the 'nuclear intolerance' of western culture and were flooding their market with cheap, clean nuclear power while the West was wasting money due to their unreasonable fear of nuclear.

    5. Err thanks conservatives for opposing cap-n-trade or a carbon tax. If you had not opposed such market based reforms back at the beginning of the Obama administration nuclear would have spent the last decade with a cost advantage against coal and to a lesser degree gas.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 1- I understand that big nuclear plants are expensive, and that your chart shows that expense but how much of that expense is due solely to the veto of the intolerant? If anything the graph you linked to, with the uptick in the cost of nuclear recently demonstrates this veto, given that we're probably not getting worse at the core tech of nuclear, that uptick could only be from increased regulations and other hassles. Same goes for smaller plants...

      2- Most people would agree that gas is better than coal, but switching everything to gas doesn't solve climate change...

      3- I don't think anyone advocating for nuclear is against individual solar or wind, but most of the energy usage isn't farms and homes it's industrial.

      4- I think the China leadership is all about growth and coal is quicker, that said China is expanding is nuclear generation faster than anyone: https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/how-china-has-become-the-worlds-fastest-expanding-nuclear-power-producer

      5- I haven't seen any big democratic push for carbon tax either, even when they controlled both houses and the presidency (admittedly that was a short window, but still) and I'm not sure what "you" refers to. If you're talking about me I'm basically in favor of a carbon tax, though, I'm not going to win any awards for my enthusiasm on that point...

      Delete
    2. 1. Zero since the cost curve represents the costs of generating plants that actually exist already. I suppose you could say the 'intolerant' might be increasing costs by pushing higher safety practices at plants already running. But then again the intolerant might be lowering costs. For example, storing waste at the plant is probably cheaper than fair user fees charged by Yuca Mountain but since the mountain isn't open plants store waste on site.

      2. No but note the costs of coal and gas have fallen. This is an economic question from the POV of a company considering spending money on building a reactor or plant. Nuclear plants make sense if costs are rising over the long term and fossil fuels are running out. That's not how things played out over the last few decades.

      #3 https://www.epa.gov/energy/electricity-customers Industrial use is about 27%, residential and commercial each take about 1/3. (I'm switching to electric versus energy here but with electric cars we ar egetting a bit muddled.)

      #4 How fast is coal really? Nuclear plants are technology from the 50's and China had nuclear power long before it got rich (because Mao wants nuclear weapons as fast as possible and the USSR didn't want to help them).

      #5 Agreed Democrats should push harder for carbon tax or cap-n-trade but then is this really a question these days which party is aligned with doing something about CO2 and which is against it? If someone said they wanted abortion outlawed would saying they should vote Republican be shocking? No because the GOP has worked very hard to make it clear they are against abortion. Shouldn't you give them credit for being very clear where they stand on carbon?

      "though, I'm not going to win any awards for my enthusiasm on that point..." But then there's no particular reason for nuclear to be cheaper today than it was 20 years ago AND other fuels like coal and gas are cheaper so why are you bemoaning lackluster nuclear investment? If you were enthusiastic at least you would have been putting energy towards something that would have helped nuclear be more competitive.

      Delete
  3. Your graph is for NA, where nuclear prices have been pushed up constistently by added regulations, which is what Jeremia was complaining about. Same story with places like Germany, where they've tried increasing things like wind/solar through incentives, but punished nuclear through fear-mongered legislation. Compare to France, which is almost 100% nulcear at this point because they embraced nuclear a long time ago and didn't put up all these silly roadblocks that make it more expensive.

    1. This is actually a great strength of nuclear. It's part of the reason it's such a good fuel source for submarines. You can dial the price up/down to match demand much more easily than, say, turning generators on/off to match demand as you have to do for coal/natural gas. And since power transmission over long distances is already the norm (the Glen Canyon Dam, for example, pumps power to NV, UT, AZ, CA, CO, and NM; at least that's what the sign said when I visited there, they may have expanded to more states) it makes no sense to have dozens of smaller natural gas plants, or millions of acres of solar farms, when a few well-placed nuclear plants could match demand more effectively.

    2. Dip those fuel rods more/less into lead, and you've got a perfect, cheap, easy rheostat. Eat your heart out, solar, wind, coal, NG, etc. Only hydro comes close to this kind of rheostat capability, but when the water level is high, you just have to let more go, regarless of power requirements.

    2.1. Mass battery storage is still a long way off. There are some great ideas out there, but I don't see a lot of mass storage being implemented. I don't consider things like the Powerwall sufficient here. The percentages are too small to make an impact power companies could reasonably make decisions on.

    3. The nuclear investment is more of a long-run payback scheme than something like solar. This is why nuclear prices are so closely tied to regulation. Nuclear energy is the most heavily regulated industry in the US (more than my industry of clinical trials) and as someone who works in a heavily-regulated industry I can tell you that directly impacts costs. There are plenty of large-investment, slow-payoff opportunities, and plenty of investors willing to sink billions into them. Look at Tesla, building their gigafactories, as a perfect example in the energy space. The problem isn't one of long-term versus short-term payoff. The problem is that regulations really do make nuclear impossible in NA, where other places - most notably France - have no problem creating cheap, clean energy from nuclear.

    4. China is building out their nuclear sector, along the French model, for exactly the reasons you cited. It's their fastest-growing source of energy generation, and they are currently constructing enough new plants to nearly double their current capacity. Sure, now they realize the super-fast build up of coal plants was probably a beginner's mistake, but it's not exactly China's first beginner's mistake when it comes to rapid technological development. I'm willing to cut them some slack: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_China

    5. Nuclear has been in a funk for decades. It's easy to call out your favorite opposition party and say they're the ones to blame, but nuclear has suffered equally no matter who controls the White House or Congress. Cap and trade would not have changed the underlying regulatory bar in place in the US.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "Your graph is for NA, where nuclear prices have been pushed up constistently by added regulations, "

      I'm seeing a rather large increase in cost around 2015 onwards yet I'm unaware of any major new nuclear regulations enacted then. I think you won't be able to show any new regulations that could account for a cost increase that looks in excess of 50%. But nuclear is a very long run investment and like other fixed cost based investments utilization and price is key.

      You can't just 'dial the price up or down'. A hotel that rents out rooms at $100/night is doing great when it has 90% occupancy but it's costs per room will explode should it drop to 60% occupancy. The moment you switch a nuclear plant on, the race is on to pay back the bonds and make profit by trying to run the plant as much as you can. If on-demand gas turbines siphon off power that the plant could be generating, you are spreading a large fixed cost over a smaller base hence a dramatic increase in cost per unit.

      "There are plenty of large-investment, slow-payoff opportunities, and plenty of investors willing to sink billions into them. Look at Tesla, building their gigafactories, as a perfect example in the energy space. The problem isn't one of long-term versus short-term payoff. The problem is that regulations really do make nuclear impossible in NA, where other places - most notably France - have no problem creating cheap, clean energy from nuclear."

      Tesla's a bit more complicated for an investor. There is the cash flow from their future expected car sales minus the costs of manufacturing AND the potential profits from the new technology and IP the company makes now that can give it an edge in the future. Tesla today might be like Amazon was in 2000. Then again it might not. A nuclear plant today, though, is static technology for the next 20 years and a question of what are the payments to the bondholders versus the money that will come in from the price of selling electricity over the next two decades.....and if that price is lower then the equation is worse for nuclear.

      " Cap and trade would not have changed the underlying regulatory bar in place in the US."

      Why? How is it sensible to say on one hand nuclear has great carbon advantages over almost everything else BUT a quota on carbon emissions somehow wouldn't make a difference?

      Delete
    2. Sorry, "price" was a typo there. I meant to say "production". I understand basic supply and demand economics, as well as paying off fixed startup costs to investors over time, thanks. I was arguing your claim that nuclear doesn't make sense because of fixed power delivery is the opposite of what the technology actually enables. Of all types of power production, it's hard to argue any is better in a market of fluctuating demand than nuclear. Contrary to your complaints.

      Sure, there are differences with nuclear, but if you look at the international community you see large investments in nuclear to this day. Part of the reason it takes two decades to build a nuclear plant in the US is because of the multiple regulatory hurdles you have to overcome. You're literally arguing that on the one hand the problem with nuclear is that it takes too long to recoup your investment, and on the other hand we shouldn't worry about regulations that make investments in nuclear take longer because ... cap and trade???

      We're talking about a technology that used to make a lot of sense in the US, and continues to make sense elsewhere around the world. Yet decades ago we stopped building nuclear - not because of some Republican decision back in the 2000's. Sure, Republicans have lots of bad policy ideas, but that doesn't mean failure to pass can n' trade is to blame for not building nuclear power plants in the 80's. Nor is cap n' trade going to solve the temporal problem of paying for carbon credits TODAY, if I can't make that trade for another 15 years until the plant gets up and running.

      Delete
    3. I think a problem here is that the financing of a large project creates an immediate expense today. The moment your giant hotel is built, the mortgage payments start falling due. The moment your huge powerplant is built, so to does its payments. The fact that it may be easy to switch a plant on and off maybe helpful but as an investor I want that plant to be on more often than off just as I'd like the hotel to have all its rooms occupied rather than empty. At least with current designs, nuclear plants are designed to be big and on almost all the time. In contrast gas can be switched on and off easier (although even gas plants would rather stay on, every startup is wear and tear on the turbine lowering its lifespan).

      I would say decades ago we stopped building nuclear because the economics turned against it. Cheaper alternative fuels coupled with a lack of growth in electric prices are huge problems to a business model that depends upon paying off huge upfront fixed costs over time. Micro-nuclear plants might be an answer to this but that is a hypothetical commercial project and it's not clear they would work economically (the advantage of a bigger plant is economies of scale, a small reactor that powers a few city blocks may be easier to turn on and off with demand swings but it will have higher cost per unit costs compared to its big brothers).

      BTW https://www.quora.com/How-long-does-it-take-to-build-a-nuclear-reactor seems to be saying it takes at least half a decade to build a plant. That's not talking about regulatory approvals but the actual on the ground work like clearing the site, putting in service roads, actually building the facility....12 months lead time and 5 years (60 months) plus another 6 months of statup testing once the reactor is in place...so nearly 7 years.

      Consider in the world of finance a 20-30 year bond is pretty long term. I believe Disney has toyed with 50 year bonds but they have a pretty established cash flow. So if you're operating with a 30 year bond 1/3 of that time the plant will not even be ready to generate cash...the last 2/3 of the life of the bond will be spent earning the money to pay it back. To make this work you are placing bets on electric rates starting nearly 10 years from now. That's a lot of risk.

      Delete
    4. The reason we stopped building nuclear in the US is because Three Mile Island turned people off to nuclear in the late 70's. Nearly every plant that was completed started construction and/or got approval prior to TMI. Many of those never got finished because of the pressure that the incident put on nuclear. You can look up nuclear capacity in the US, and notice some plants started operation in the 90's, but those were all started in the 70's. It may only take 7 years to construct a plant if you're building it on some libertarian utopian island somewhere, but the regulatory costs really do push the project out to decades.

      It seems in the late 2000's/early 2010's there was talk of a major nuclear revival, with new designs being proposed and lots of money being spent. Then the Daiichi disaster happened in Japan and all those projects got scrapped, too. If the problem were one of simple economics, we wouldn't see this kind of strong relationship between public reactions to nuclear disasters and cancellation of planned nuclear projects. People were litterally saying, in 2009, that nuclear was hitting a huge revival, with billions of dollars being spent on it; then a few years later in 2012 they were saying, "nuclear is dead." That's not based on the underlying economics of the cost to build a plant, versus the projected profit. That's public fear manifesting as pressure against developing nuclear power. Or as Jeremiah would probably put it, "veto through intolerance".

      I will agree that part of the reason the nuclear revival died was because of the fracking boom. The world is multi-causal, and of course these things don't happen in a vacuum. But most of the nuclear projects that were cancelled in the early part of this decade were scrapped long after fracking had hit its stride, but very soon after the Japanese disaster.

      Delete
    5. "The reason we stopped building nuclear in the US is because Three Mile Island turned people off to nuclear in the late 70's"

      "People" never built nuclear plants. Large utility companies and investment funds did and do. Don't confuse public perception, pop culture, with actual decision making power.

      Keep in mind the figure it takes 7 years or so to actually build a plant and start collecting $$$ by selling its electricity to the market. That figure was based only on actual construction, not considering regulatory approvals or paperwork.

      What was the view of the future in the 1970's? Resource scarcity, increasing demand for electricity, fewer alternatives. If that had panned out the price of power would have risen and alternatives like cheap natural gas would have never been discovered. Plant operators would enjoy higher profits and investors a high return. The opposite happened, though, meaning investors got burned. Burn investors on something that takes 30+ years to pay off and that will cause it to diminish.

      Delete
    6. That's my whole point! People don't build nuclear plants, large investors do. Yet whenever a large, negative, public story turns 'people' off to nuclear, long-term private investments in nuclear power dry up - whether projects to build new plants, add to existing plants, or extend the life of old plants.

      There was a story just the other day about private investors looking to put $50 million into building a 100 MW fusion reactor in 15 years. And Lockheed Martin has been working on fusion, sinking millions into long-term, unproven fusion development, as an emerging technology.

      It's simply not true that people won't spend millions of dollars waiting for a long-term, risky payoff. And they'll do it in energy in energy. And they have a record of doing it in nicest fission energy.

      It is true that somehow public nuclear disasters are followed immediately by otherwise inexplicable rounds of cancellation of nuclear projects, despite large sunk costs. Maybe you don't accept regulation as the culprit here, but there's some translation between public attitudes toward nuclear and private permission to build going on here.

      Delete
  4. Perhaps it seems strange, if you don't work in a highly regulated industry, that people often claim regulations:
    a.) prevent growth,
    b.) jack up costs significantly, and
    c.) provide little safety benefit

    Nuclear is not my field. All I know is that it's the only industry worse than my industry - clinical trials. Here are a couple of examples from clinical development that inform my view of this subject:

    1. A major pharmaceutical company was developing a treatment for asthma. Initial trials showed great efficacy, but the effect did not wash out. The company had no asthma drugs on the market, but they pulled development of this drug ASAP. Why? They hadn't seen any adverse events, but if the primary effect did not wash out neither would any adverse effects to be discovered later. That meant high liability, possibly bankrupcy, and there's not much money in asthma since corticosteroids are already really cheap. So ... curing asthma is just too risky.

    2. A major part of clinical trials is something we sometimes call the "regulatory binder". This is a bit of a misnomer because these run several binders thick, to the point of becoming useless as a reference (the ostensible purpose). But if there's an audit you can't forget the small details. For example, you have to print out regular updates to the IRB membership list. Most of the research nurses who put these binders together don't even know why this is. It's just one more of hundreds of different forms they have to keep track of and update. (Ostensibly, this is to ensure the physicians working on the trial aren't voting members of the IRB. It rarely gets cross-checked for trial investigators - its intended purpose. But it stays updated!)

    3. The protocol for a liver trial said that if a patient had elevated liver function tests (LFTs) they needed to bring the patient back to test for possible drug-induced liver injury (DILI). When I got there, the lead physician hadn't reviewed labs for six months, during which time a patient had elevated LFTs that had gone completely unnoticed. Meanwhile, the research coordinators had been pre-filling out source documentation (a huge scientific-reliability problem; but it was a way to save time, given all the regulatory work they had to do), and a dozen other problems. They notified their IRB of all these deficiencies, gave some weak response about how "oops, my bad - we won't do it again". Nothing but an acknowledgement from the IRB. No worries, continue as usual.

    This site was doing bad research, and putting patients' lives at risk in the process. Effective oversight would close them down fast. But IRBs are so busy reviewing minor infractions (like not having an IRB membership list) that they've essentially become a rubber stamp. I know multiple sites that should not be doing research, but are often enrolling large numbers of patients.

    Although each regulation is iteslf intended to increase safety, the net impact is to overload the system and make things less safe. En mass, the high costs disincentivize development of new, sorely-needed interventions. More regulations are not the same as good regulations. There are good, targeted regulations that I would either keep or strengthen. I'd like to talk about targeted regulations, and assessing whether they accomplish their intended goals. But there really are too many of them.

    Knowing nuclear is worse than clinical trials, it's no surprise to me that nobody wants to touch it here in the US.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I work in pharma (fair warning, I speak only for myself and not on behalf of my employer), so clearly we do a lot of clinical trials.

      I'm not sure why you think nuclear is more regulated than clinical trials or pharma. I actually think it might be the opposite. Once the nuclear plant is built a lot of regulation is done and it's mostly reporting and logging issues. Yes that takes work but even absent gov't regulation, a nuclear plant's SOP is going to be pretty intense.

      On the other hand as you point out there's a web of regulations and protections with every drug tested and beyond. To manufacture a drug, a company has to make sure every pill is almost exactly the same when the active ingredients are of often measured in tiny units. Impurities have to be kept out. Every trial as you point out is really thousands of patients who have numerous interactions...each interaction can create a life or death crises. A nuclear plant can't eliminate the human element but it can at least filter the humans who touch the plant to vetted employees but each patient is a human and humans do all sorts of unpredictable things....even something as simple as "take one pill a day" can get very complex given human nature.

      Keep in mind also the purpose of a trial is to see if the drug has any statistically significant impact. To do that right you need to keep the control and test groups pretty tightly controlled. In the old days 'testing' consisted of passing out lots of samples of a drug and asking doctors to report back what people said happened. That works when the drug has huge benefits and little downside but if you're testing for a very faint difference in outcomes that's not going to cut it.

      So is your regulation from the gov't or your customer? If I was paying you to test my drug to see if it works, I'd want your protocol followed enough to pick up even a small statistical signal of effectiveness. That sounds to me like work that is going to be very detailed and precise...but as you point out even there there are deviations from protocol.

      Delete
    2. I was likewise shocked to learn that nuclear is more heavily regulated than clinical development! My understanding is that nuclear has lots of regulations even after the plant is running. Not just security, but also maintenance and testing of multiple redundant backup systems, etc. But you'll notice my larger concern is the over-regulation of the initial plant build, since this is a major part of the reason it takes so long to build one. (Or to extend rated lifespan, or to build additional capacity onto an existing plant.)

      I'm all for well-done science, in fact I think if we aren't willing to do it right let's not do it at all. To the extent a regulation helps improve that science, I don't mind where it comes from (government or customers). My point is that many regulations don't actually improve the science (or in the case of nuclear, engineering) even though they're intended to, and sound like they probably will prior to enacting them. Indeed, poor regulations can often work against more than just price, but can also reduce safety and supply. My intent was to share a small sample of the ways I've seen this happen. I don't want to eliminate the FDA or completely de-regulate pharma - any more than I'd want a comparable Wild West for nuclear. I'm saying we ought to look at whether regulations actually accomplish the goals we enacted them to achieve. I'm not saying less is always better, but I am saying more (or even status quo) is the wrong direction if we care about nuclear safety, reliability, supply, and cost.

      Delete
    3. I'm not accepting it's an established fact that nuclear is more heavily regulated than clinical development. I think these discussions of regulations get bogged down into an apples and orange mess. The nuclear plant keeps paper logs of all its visitors. You ask why they do that. They say the gov't requires them to keep security tight. You say that's regulation. But does the regulation say keep paper logs or does it just say keep a log of who has access to the plant? Is the plant really abiding by a regulation or using a relatively neutral regulation to blame for a system that should have been updated by more insightful management?

      Delete