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One of the good things about doing a two part post is that you get the chance to receive feedback in the comments section on what you’ve said thus far. The last post was no exception, and an excellent discussion ensued in which some great points were made. But before I get to that, I’d like to have a bit of a meta-discussion, and set forth an editorial policy for this blog which will exist until otherwise rescinded. I like to show my commenters in the best possible light since they went to all the trouble of actually commenting, and thus I will take the liberty of making minor editorial corrections where it’s an obvious typo or mistake, if you really care about fidelity you can alway go back and read the original comment. With that out of the way let’s start with a comment from Mark:
From a sex perspective there is a difference, one of fundamental biology, in every cell of a person's body - male vs female. This comes down to the definitional difference of sex versus gender. If you can't agree that Jenner's sex is fundamentally male, there's nowhere to go from there. If we can agree on that, then it all boils down to the nebulous question, "what is gender?"
The general definition of gender is that it is socially, or potentially neurologically, constructed. If it's a social conduct, it's unclear what causes certain individuals to interpret their gender to be different from their biological sex based on cumulative social interactions. If it's neurologically determined, we really have no understanding of the fundamental mechanisms involved.
Since we really don't know what causes individuals to identify as a different gender, it's a little premature to claim victory for one side of the argument that claims it is a natural phenomenon to be respected and accepted, over the side the claims it's a condition to be treated. Both sides are arguing from the same degree of ignorance until we know what causes TG. Since we don't even know whether it's increasing our even increasingly identified, I try to be be a little less certain in my proclamations.
To begin with he makes a valuable distinction between socially constructed and neurologically constructed, a distinction which I mostly glossed over in the last post. Also he makes a very valid point about certainty. I know that listing a bunch of theories, with my own sense of likelihood, isn’t the best way to demonstrate a lack of certainty, but I really am not certain about what’s happening, which I hope is somewhat reflected by my kitchen sink approach to the whole thing. Also, while it’s not exactly a theory, we should include in our list the very real possibility that we have no idea, that it’s something we haven’t even thought of, or that it’s a combination of a lot of things, many of which I may have touched on, some of which I almost certainly haven’t. All of this was not emphasized enough in the last post.
Moving on, Boonton had this to say:
I suspect what is happening is probably akin to autism. On the one hand we know more about what to look for hence we see it more than we used too. On the other hand, the definition has been expanded so more are covered by it than they used to. However since we can't measure past populations with today's tests it's hard to rule out if autism has remained constant, decreased or increased. I think we might get to a point where we could rule some things out. For example, I think we could rule out 0% from your days in HS. Might, though, the rate have been 1.5% and now it's 2.5%?
There might be something else afoot too...autism, like gender, is about how the individual relates to society and vice versa. Since society isn't constant, this isn't as simple as asking what the 'rate' is.
First, to clarify, I never claimed the rate at my high school was 0%. I claimed that there were zero individuals who were openly transgender, but that if I had to guess there were probably a couple who were closeted, which would be a rate of around a tenth of a percent. A number I’m sure Boonton and I disagree on, but I’m not trying to pull a there are no homosexuals in Iran stunt. Also as I indicated, I was more offering it up as a story/example of how the phenomenon played out for me than as actual hard data.
Second, I agree that autism is a pretty good analogy, particularly insofar as it speaks to a phenomenon where everybody agrees with Boonton’s point that part of the increase is due to being able to identify it better, while also expanding the definition of what it is. This all stems from the fact that there’s no blood test, brain scan, or other objective test for autism. It all depends on how closely the individual being screened for autism matches the criteria in the DSM. TGNC is similar and thus it is entirely conceivable that the increase is all just due to an increase in identification and a broadening of definition. The question, then, is once we account for those two factors do they explain the entire increase? Or is there something left over?
My gut says that there is, for a couple of reasons. First, to use the example of autism, the rate continues to increase despite an awareness of the problems of overdiagnosis. Second there are studies which have tied autism rates to paternal age, premature birth, and toxins in the environment. All things which have been increasing recently. Still it would be nice if there was some clear objective standard for whether someone is definitely autistic or definitely transgender. And in a roundabout way this takes us to our final theory for the increase.
Gender dysphoria is a body dysmorphic disorder similar to anorexia and bulimia
If you do a search for this theory on the internet you’ll find that it’s a popular but very controversial explanation for gender dysphoria. Up until recently, the sense I got was that this was one of the main explanations for what was happening. And people were confident enough in it as an explanation that it led people like Paul McHugh, the Chief of Psychiatry at John Hopkins from 1975 to 2001, to shut down their gender-identity clinic, which was only re-opened last year. An act which I think mirrors the arc of this theory. What was once one of the main explanations for TGNC, gradually came to be one of those things that people don’t bring up in polite society. It’s not hard to see why, the association is definitely negative, but more than that, it doesn’t offer any immediate solution even if you grant the connection. Anorexia and bulimia are notoriously difficult to treat, meaning there’s not some simple solution which then can easily be transferred over and tested on people with gender dysphoria to see if it works. Moreover to the extent anorexia and bulimia can be treated, we haven’t identified the underlying cause, meaning that what works has been more a matter of trial and error, than anything that gets to the root of the problem.
This inability to discover an underlying mechanism makes any connection between the two conditions speculative at best. But they both share the qualities of being something entirely unexpected from the standpoint of evolution, at least partially driven by culture, and apparently increasing. For many people it’s the evolutionary angle that’s the most interesting. Though there is a group of phenomena I mentioned in a previous post which might help explain things. The phenomenon of supernormal stimuli, edge cases where trends which previously had an upper limit set by nature, are allowed to exceed those limits by technology, creating unexpected behavior with no survival value.
Along those lines, if you’ll permit me to digress into some fairly wild speculation. Historically the vast majority of people would have no examples of extreme masculinity or femininity, being limited to the narrow sphere of people they came in contact with in the local village. None of these people would have much in the way of access to fancy clothing, to say nothing of makeup or a hair stylist. The modern world has changed all that, and now we are confronted with extreme examples of both masculinity and femininity all the time. And by extreme we’re talking about the one in a million supermodel or athlete. The kind of person our ancestors wouldn’t encounter in a hundred lifetimes. People have already drawn a connection between anorexia and bulimia and the constant exposure of young women to incredibly skinny models. Could a similar exposure to gender extremes have created gender dysphoria? Also, consider, going back to our historical example, the lack of fancy clothing and similar didn’t apply to nobles and interestingly enough, that is precisely where we see most of the examples of androgyny, and similar “gender-bending” behavior. As I said, it’s some fairly wild speculation, but not completely baseless either.
Here we arrive at the roundabout connection I mentioned earlier. Whatever you feel to be the similarities between anorexia and gender dysphoria (and you may think there are none). The former is at least easy to diagnosis objectively unlike autism. Which is to say, we have an example of an objectively diagnosable condition which modernity has definitely made worse, and if there’s a connection maybe the same applies to gender dysphoria, despite the difficulties of evaluating it in a similarly objective fashion. That said when considering the likelihood there is at least one way in which they are dissimilar. The growth rate in anorexia and bulimia peaked quite a while ago, and more recently it’s basically plateaued, while, as I pointed out, the TGNC rate appears to have spiked only in the last few years.
With the final theory out of the way (and remember it may be a combination of these theories, and it also may be none of them). It’s time to tackle the question of why it matters. If it were simply a matter of fashion, say the return of bell bottoms, or even if it was a full on epidemic of cross dressing, but lacked any additional desires for surgical changes, it might merit a paragraph in my blog, but I certainly wouldn’t spend two whole posts talking about it. Clearly, however, this phenomenon goes beyond just a change in labels. There is definitely something more going on, the question is what? For some people it’s enough to label the whole thing as unnatural, and depending on how broad you want to make the definition of that word, it almost certainly is, but I’m enough of a libertarian to not care if something’s unnatural if it’s mostly harmless. Thus the question is not whether it’s unnatural (which is difficult or impossible to answer) the question is whether it’s harmless? And here the answer appears to be “no”, and on this point I find myself deeply indebted to an anonymous individual who took the time to comment on the last post:
I can say from experience that dealing with gender dysphoria is very stressful. I've frequently felt suicidal, and I haven't even had to deal with bullying or any of the other stuff that people who are living an 'out' TG lifestyle have to put up with. There's definitely more to the high suicide rate than just bullying.
Here he mentions the issue that eventually gets brought up in any discussion of people who identify as TGNC, particularly if you’re speaking about harm, the issue of suicide. A couple of the other commenters get deep into the weeds trying to determine exactly what the rate is, and if you’re interested in that I would urge you to read their discussion. But I think even those who are most strident in arguing for a lower rate than what you can find in the literature (also their might be some confusion between suicide attempts and suicides) would agree that TGNC individuals are at a significantly greater risk of suicide than the general population, and of course the question is why.
One of the most common explanations, is that the increased risk of suicide is due to bullying. In which case there’s no harm inherent to the TGNC identification itself, all of the harm comes from the ignorant people who surround the individual. Here is where you see why I’m so indebted to the anonymous commenter, because he provides a first person account that his gender dysphoria made him feel suicidal and it had nothing to do with the bullying. This is a point I’ve made in the past, though when I made it then I was looking at some statistics rather than a first person account. Specifically I was pointing out the fact that the suicide rate was going up, particularly among TGNC individuals, but that it was going up at the same time that society was becoming increasingly tolerant. Two trends that should have been inversely correlated were positively correlated.
Which brings me to one of the things I was hoping to accomplish with these two posts. If we can agree that the suicide rate among TGNC individuals is higher than the general population, and if we can agree it’s not solely because of bullying or because society is becoming less tolerant. Then I assume that we can all further agree that if we could reduce that rate without any other unintended consequences that we would want to do that. Right? From this it more or less follows that if TGNC is increasing and we can figure out why it’s increasing and stop that increase we should do it. Correct?
In response to anonymous’ original comment I said:
I hope you won't mind if ask whether you would take the opportunity to eliminate your dysphoria if that were an option? Say there was a drug you could take with minimal side effects. Or is it so much part of your identity, that despite it being "very stressful" you wouldn't want to eliminate it?
To which he responded:
I would have it removed in an instant. I would give up anything else too, as long as I was assured that I would be happier afterward.
Which means we have at least one person who is actually experiencing gender dysphoria who would answer “yes” to that question, i.e. that if we can figure out why it’s increasing and stop it from increasing (or even reverse it) then we should.
Obviously a lot hinges on whether it’s actually increasing. If the rate is static, as many people assume, than regardless of suicide risk there may not be much we can do. (Absent something radical like gene editing, and this assumes it’s actually genetic.) It may be, as they say, part of the landscape. However, as I’ve repeatedly said, I don’t think that it is static, meaning, there might be things we can do or not do. And speaking of things not to do, when considering transgendered individuals and suicide, much has been made of the suicide rate after gender reassignment surgery. And in fact, in the previous post on this subject I brought it up as evidence that merely doing everything possible to match the outward expression of gender to what the person felt like on the inside was not a surefire solution to depression and suicide.
In the course of revisiting the subject while writing this post I did look for any rebuttals for this increase. And I came across an article on transadvocate.com. The article brings up some excellent points, but they are all related to the way things were interpreted, they don’t question any of the actual results. You are welcome to read it for yourself, but as far as I can tell the chief complaint they have with the interpretation is that there was no control, that these are people who suffered so strongly from gender dysphoria that they went through with surgery even in a time when it was still relatively new and taboo (1973-2003) and that as part of that the amount of societal backlash was severe. Thus first, an accurate interpretation would have to account for the greater “bullying” experienced by post transition individuals, and second you need a control group of people who felt equally strong dysphoria but who didn’t have the surgery, your control can’t merely be anyone who identifies as transgender regardless of the intensity of that feeling. (See here for something similar.)
Both of these points make sense. The study was done when gender reassignment surgery was still very new. And one would expect the backlash to be greater. (Indeed if you look at people closer to the end of the study the increase appears to vanish.) Similarly given how new the surgical option was, it would make sense that only those with the most extreme cases of gender dysphoria would have taken that option, and at that level it may map to an increased suicide risk regardless of whether they underwent surgery.
All that said, I think the main point remains. We have this idea of what will help TGNC individuals, more tolerance, surgery, greater acceptance, etc. And all of them essentially flow out of my first theory (and maybe the second). That basically there’s just this hump where tolerance lags behind reality, and if we can just get over it, TGNC individuals will be no more suicidal than anyone else. And while I agree that tolerance is important, in fact the most important thing with respect to our day to day interactions, society just keeps getting more tolerate without any corresponding decrease in the number of suicides. Also this skips over understanding whether the increase is just an increase in the number of people identifying as TGNC or if it’s an increase in the actual underlying rate. Instead we skip over that understanding and move straight to the tolerance step, and often times then rush straight on to the surgery step. But as far as I can tell there’s no evidence this reduces suicidal ideation. The article may be right that it doesn’t increase it, but I haven’t seen any numbers claiming that it decreases it, which means our best case scenario is that it holds things constant, with the possibility still open that it makes things worse.
This takes me to the other potential harm I worry about, how all of this plays out with respect to children. An increasing number of children identify as TGNC, and the question of how to handle them is becoming acrimonious to say the least. From The Economist:
What is unforgivable is that children are caught in the crossfire. Soaring numbers are seeking help for gender dysphoria...If they are unlucky, what happens next will have more to do with an adult battle over identity than with what is right for them.
Gender reassignment is a momentous choice, since it causes irreversible physical changes and, if surgery is done to reshape the genitalia, perhaps also sterility. For gender-dysphoric children the clock is ticking, since puberty moulds bodies in ways no drugs or scalpel can undo. Waiting until adulthood to start the transition therefore means worse results.
Some clinics buy time with puberty-blockers, which suppress the action of sex hormones. But these may have harmful side-effects. Furthermore, most gender-dysphoric children will probably not become transgender adults. Studies are scarce and small, but suggest that, without treatment, a majority will end up comfortable in their birth sex, so treatment would be harmful. Unfortunately, no one knows how to tell which group is which. Yet some trans activists have thrown caution to the wind. Specialists who start by trying to help gender-dysphoric children settle in their birth identities, rather than making a speedy switch, risk being labelled transphobes and forced out of their jobs. Few are willing to say that some such children may actually be suffering from a different underlying problem, such as anorexia or depression.
That’s a long quote, but it covers a lot of ground. And since I’m basically out of time, the key point I want to draw your attention to is that most transgender kids do not grow up to be transgender adults. (In another article The Economist gives the number as 12-39%). Meaning that understanding what’s going on, determining whether it’s increasing and why, are becoming more and more important.
I don’t know what to do, or what’s going on. Or which if any of these theories is the correct one, or what to tell a parent who has a TGNC child, or what to tell my anonymous commenter. Though I definitely think he was on to something when he said this:
I'm glad you're finding this interesting. I'm finding it nice to be able to talk about.
I also think it’s nice to be able to talk about it. And I think being able to discuss all possible theories without fear of being labeled a horrible person might be a good first step
There will be no post next week, I’m going to be travelling. I probably still could have done something, but I didn’t want it to be rushed. In light of that I will lay off the guilt for the week as well. No request for donations. But if a lack of guilt is what you were waiting for then go right ahead.
A good post, although I'm skeptical of the super stimulus theory. From what I understand most eating disorders appear around puberty and to me seem clearly linked to societal standards of beauty and mass media. Yet it seems the testimony from many TG people involve feelings that happened long before sexual development or mass media consumption. (they seem to have peaked in the mid-90's which would be consistent with the trend for heavier sex symbols and celebrities we see more often today than from the coke filled 80's era (see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15684236)).
ReplyDeleteThis also doesn't explain why TG. Why would Bruce Jenner, for example, not be enthralled with media images of the perfect male body but instead try to achieve a female body in late middle age? This leads to deeper questions.... In the dark ages, everyone in your village might have had pimples. Today you realize it's quite possible not to have pimples (or to cover them up if you do). Is that a disorder or awareness? Perhaps traditional views of gender are a bit backwards. Perhaps media has actually created more extreme gender roles than the hypothetical 'dark ages village'? Think about it, if I ask you to think of the most feminine woman and most masculine man, your reference points from media are likely to be pretty far apart and very extreme. More than average people you encounter day to day. Perhaps conservative peons to traditional gender roles are actually setting up some dysphoria because the reality is they aren't actually referencing real roles but extreme ones since media will always have more diversity and cover a wider spectrum of experiences than real life could.
For suicide I agree rates are probably higher than average and this cannot all be attributed to societal bullying. Perhaps some of it is due to tolerance. A TG person today has a lot of choices, including major body altering operations. As much as that opens up some possible solutions, it also creates a lot of pressure. Come out or not? Get just hormones, 'top' surgery, or 'bottom' too? Change your name? Change your birth certificate? None of these are choices a villager from the dark ages had to confront. More choice is generally preferred but it is also well documented that more choices adds to stress. Modern life puts a lot of stress on all of us by making us much more responsible than we ever were in the past. The downside to choice is having to live with the nagging fear you made the wrong one a while back, you've missed out and if you could only do it again differently you would have done much better. So in a sense Caitlyn Jenner could be both inspiration for many TG people but also a source of stress.
My wife occasionally catches "I Am Jazz", a reality show about a TG teen. In one of the episodes she is looking for 'bottom surgery' but a problem is the hormone blockers she has been on has resulted in a very small penis. Since the vagina is made out of the penis, this makes the operation more difficult (but not impossible) to navigate. That does indicate that perhaps caution in some body modifications on children is a better policy even when the end result is going to be full re-assignment surgery.
I do agree not all people who think they are TG are 'really TG' or would be best served by operations. I do think, though, that a lot of screening and self-selection happens. Reality shows might do better if they asked doctors how many patients they have that do not end up getting major surgery either because they change their minds or because the doctor felt it wasn't good psychologically. Caution here is a sword that cuts both ways. I think traditionalists should exercise a lot of caution before judging people and families who go through this. To date most of the work done here appears to be very tabloid based and exploitative.
Supernormal stimulus is definitely a thing. The question is not whether it exists, but whether it exists in humans (probably) and if so how it manifests (here things are much more speculative.)
DeleteI agree that there are some areas where eating disorders and TGNC definitely don't overlap, but when you bring up the issue of when it starts that brings up an interesting schism that I didn't want to get into, because while it seems obvious (at least to me) most people gloss over it. That is there are obviously two sorts of transgendered individuals. Ones for who which it started quite early, and ones where it's something that appears only to come about mostly in males and much later in life. Caitlyn Jenner, the Wachowskis, and several others seem to fit more into this mold. Now I don't know that that necessarily strengthens the eating disorder connection, probably not, but it is an example of where a focus on tolerance has possibly eclipsed a focus on understanding.
The idea that views of traditional/conservative views of gender roles could be contributing is an interesting one. As I understand it you're saying that there is this need to hark back to "real men" but "real men" weren't a thing historically given that most people were diseased, with short lifespans and bad teeth, and that since you can't achieve this impossible view and you don't realize the average is more where things were it ends up twisting things into what we see? Is that a fair restatement?
Your talk about the "paradox of choice" and the pressure and stress mirrors a theory I brought up in a previous post. The idea being that if you know what the problem is you can deal with it. If you're parents treat you like crap, or if you're poor, or oppressed, etc. then you know why you're depressed and when your depression doesn't go away it's not surprising, all those things are still present. But we may have created a situation now where all of the normal causes have disappeared, everyone is super supportive and tolerate and you can choose to do whatever you want, and yet despite all of that you're still not happy. When that realization comes the only possible conclusion the individual can come to is that they're fundamentally broken. As you say Jenner could be an inspiration and a source of stress.
That's interesting that hormone blockers could make full transition more difficult. Yeah, when it comes to kids, I feel like there are not a lot of good options. But given that the majority are not going to grow up to be transgender adults, I think avoiding long term harm should be at the very top of the list, though obviously more research is probably needed.
I believe Jenner has said he always felt that way, even in childhood. I'd be curious to know if you can find any example of a TG man or woman who said it 'just came on' in late adulthood versus them deciding to action it in late adulthood.
DeleteHaving to act does create a lot of stress because it adds a lot of responsibility and adds the possibility of no authority to help confirm you got it right. Consider Angelina Jolie's decision to get a hysterectomy and mastectomy because she is BRCA positive. On the one hand getting those operations drastically reduces the risk of breast and ovarian cancer. On the other hand, watchful monitoring might work as well and newer drugs seem to work very well with BRCA cancers. What is the right call? No doctor can tell you because there's objective argument for both sides. You may get the operation and then learn 5 years later treatment options are great. You may not get the operations and die 5 years later because of that call. No pressure.
This ties into inequality as well. Either inequality is unearned or it is earned. If unearned, it's unjust. If earned then a lot of us at some point made a wrong call. People below us verify we could have done a lot worse but those above us remind us other choices could have worked out a lot better for us.
" Is that a fair restatement?" yes. I would add that without mass media the options might be larger. Consider a small village. What defines a woman as feminine is made up of a small sample of women. If a woman was particularly strong or assertive, they probably could accommodate that to some degree. Imagine Janet Reno, for example. Now picture a meeting of the Young Conservative Women's Group in 1987. Odds are everyone you picture has a tight, but not revealing, dress on. Pearls. Big poofy hair and lots of makeup. All these people, when they think of femine, don't think of their female classmates and villagers as their sample but a host of fashion magazines that find and amplify the extremes...extremes that are too rigid for many people to fully fit into.
A post modernist once made the observation that even saying 'traditional' implies you are disconnected from it. The hypothetical village doesn't imagine itself as traditional, it just has traditions. By asserting one should 'be traditional' one is adopting a mask and in a certain sense play acting. And good actors can change roles very easily. This is why I think attacks on Trump's lack of family values will not go far by themselves. In a real sense none of them really believe it.
One comment on the question of whether we should preference traditional vs. modern:
DeleteTake something completely non-controversial, like navigation. Nobody would argue that simple memorization was better for navigation (at getting you to where you want to go) than a map and compass, or later a GPS. Perhaps you could argue that you need battery power and operational satellites for the GPS, so you can imagine some survival scenario where map and compass beats out GPS (and still does better than memorized routes). Okay, so let's not outlaw map and compass, but that's not an argument to get rid of GPS.
But if you're talking to a group of Amish people, who claim that modern technology has allowed families to live thousands of miles apart, and that this is a bad thing, you have to be able to argue that these bad effects either aren't the result of the technology, or that there is some way to both keep the technology and solve the ill effects brought on by it. In this case, the Amish are making a claim to traditionalism as superior to modernity as a starting point, not because we should a priori preference tradition for its own sake; but because human development has previously depended on a certain set of conditions, and when you change those conditions it's necessary to ask whether those changes are positive, or whether there are negative effects to those changes that need to be addressed.
This is why we go back to primative societies to ask questions about human development, and what their impact is on modern societies. It is because traditional societies are the condition we are applying changes to, so we want to ask what the nature of those changes are and to what extent those changes are positive or negative, both individually and on the whole. On one hand, we can't pretend GPS doesn't exist (or we could, if we wanted to be Amish - which they're totally cool with, by the way - but we have to accept the limitations that entails and it feels wrong to impose that on everyone), and on the other hand we shouldn't pretend that humanity didn't develop in small tribal communities around the world, and in conditions that we have forgotten so thoroughly that when we talk about them we often mischaracterize what life was like. (cf. 'nasty, brutish, and short'; a gross mischaracterization)
The point isn't to state, as some do, that tradition should be respected and reverted to for its own sake. The point is to view tradition as a complex sort of Chesterton fence, where we often think we know why the fence was built, but the world is a complex place and maybe the initial reason to build the fence (a bull on the other side of the fence) has been superceded by the long relied-upon existence of the fence (the fence has been established as the official unit of measure, and tearing it down will dramatically impact society on a grander scale). Or maybe not. The point isn't to leave the fence in place forever, it is to treat tearing it down with the caution it deserves.
Well stated.
DeleteThe phrase "I don't know" is too underused. I think this one thing holds us back, more than anything, from making real discoveries. I've formulated enough hypotheses (and then tested them in the lab) to know that the easy part is looking at the data and coming up with an explanation why this MUST be so. Only to find out later that, nope it isn't so. I think it's easier to reject a hypothesis when all you have riding on it is a measly couple weeks of your life and lots of hours spent after hours on the flow cytometer (because everyone hogs the thing during the day!). For some reason, it seems like it's harder when there's ideology attached to an idea. Or worse, when lives are at stake.
ReplyDeleteTake, for example, the radical mastectomy. Radical, apparently, has the latin meaning "root". I don't know if that's true, but apparently that was the reasoning for naming a theory of the mastectomy that surgeons used for treating cancer. Soon after the development of effective anesthetics, the obvious treatment for cancer (just cut it out!) became popular. And as breast cancer is pretty much at the forefront of all cancer treatment (yes, those pink ribbons mean lots of money for breast cancer research) it was the breast cancer surgeons who first noticed that after a simple lumpectomy they would often see additional tumors pop up. They figured the problem was they didn't get all the cancer cells, and there were some microscopic lesions that they could get if they simply took more tissue.
And more tissue.
And more...
After taking the whole breast, they expanded to a bilateral mastectomy. Then they took the draining lymph nodes, then neck, brachial, etc. lymph nodes. Then the underlying musculature, bones, and on and on. It got so surgeons were bragging about how much tissue they could take. And why not? They were saving lives with every extra bit they took! Patients were told that they would look disfigured, but in the fight (FIGHT!) against cancer it was this or their very lives.
A group of physicians wanted to ask whether the radical mastectomy was really better than the lumpectomy. They started a clinical trial to ask this question (no RCT had been done and this was SOC!), but many IRBs shut them down, claiming it was unethical to provide an inferior treatment to a life-threatening disease. But there was no evidence that a lumpectomy was inferior - only a HYPOTHESIS that it was. And the hypothesis was treated as evidence! Eventually, after opening some sites in Canada, they fulfilled recruitment and published their results.
No survival improvement in radical mastectomy vs. lumpectomy. The hypothesis was largely abandoned. It was clearly wrong. But a huge amount of harm was done to countless women who were told to trust their physicians because they knew what they were doing. Wrong hypotheses do lots of harm when treated as truth. It is gratifying to see someone say, "I have lots of hypotheses, but in the end I really just don't know." That is the beginning of knowledge.
I feel like social construction is being given short shrift here. I recently listened to another excellent installment of Dan Carlin's "Hardcore History" on the history of public execution and torture. It's not for the faint of heart. Interestingly, he points out that this idea that personally viewing the most greusome, painful, literally gut-wrenching torture; and having a feeling of being sick or even physically vomitting is socially constructed. That feeling like you're going to be sick when you see real, horrifying violence against another human being? Apparently that is socially constructed. It wasn't a thing as recently as a couple hundred years ago.
ReplyDeleteNow, maybe older societies sucessfully suppressed this natural tendency, or maybe we created it when we eliminated greusome public execution. Does it matter? The point is that there's this uncontrollable physical response that some people have, and either it is entirely socially constructed (without anyone intentionally creating it) or it used to be entirely eliminated due to a social construct (without anyone intentionally doing so). And it's not like it is common knowledge that any of this happened. It's just a thing that happened, accidentally, that has real physiological consequences. Nobody noticed, and society moved on.
The point isn't to say, "Ha! Social constructs can have physiological consequences, so everything is mutable and therefore so is TG!" The point is that we had no clue we were making socially-driven physiological changes to our bodies, and yet we did (as regards torture, I'm not making any claims as regards TG). We didn't know they would involve fundamental, visceral reactions to outward stimuli, and yet they do.
To then turn around and say, "We have an untested explanation for why such-and-such happened, so therefore we know how to solve the negative impacts brought about by that change" is an act of hubris. There are lots of hypotheses for what is causing TG, and more specifically, what is causing some of the negative statistical correlations (most prominently suicide) associated with TG identification. Nobody actually knows the causes, but everyone seems to know the solutions. And everyone seems content to mash their preferred cause up with their preferred solution. For example, if you argue both that TG is increasing in the population (not just identification of previous trends) and that TG is entirely genetically determined, there is a fundamental disconnect there. Like with asthma or food allergy, where we know there's a dramatic population-level increase in developed nations, but people keep looking for genetic explanations for what's driving it. Sure, genetics is probably important, but if we're seeing changes on the time scale of lived experience, the increase isn't being driven by genetics.
I'm not confident that anyone has it right, but I'd rather not see people shut down because there is a societal construct that says their ideas just have to be wrong (either conservative or liberal). Look, if we can stop kids from dying just by changing the pronoun we refer to them by, then I'm all for it. But I want to see the evidence. And asking for hard data before enacting a solution isn't some horrible sin, it's being responsible. "But children's lives are at stake!" Exactly, and every day we waste enacting another ineffective solution is another day children die. I'm not saying I'm in the camp of social constructs as a cause. I really don't know. It's not something I particularly favor, honestly. But there are a lot of people who are definitely in the camp for that hypothesis, and I'm not going to be the one to shut them down. I'm more interested in shutting them down when they try to enforce their hypothesis without any supporting evidence, and when they attempt to shut down opposing viewpoints based on hypothesis alone.
As far as social construction. I feel that several of the theories are sub-theories of a higher level "social construction" theory. But I could see where it probably deserved some space all by itself. I also listened to that Dan Carlin HH episode, as you say, very interesting. And I hadn't made the connection, so I'm glad you pointed it out.
DeleteFinally, skipping over understanding to "solutions" is one of the points I was trying to make... Though I would add one caveat to your prescription. I would like to see the evidence as well, but I think we can be trying potential solutions while we gather evidence, in fact that's one of the only ways evidence can be gathered. And one of the points I should have made is to draw attention to, what I see as, a reluctance to gather evidence, or allow for a broad range of solutions to be tried as long as we're gathering evidence on their effectiveness.
The Economist mentioned "Specialists who start by trying to help gender-dysphoric children settle in their birth identities, rather than making a speedy switch, risk being labelled transphobes and forced out of their jobs." If it turns out that this is a horrible idea, then we can stop doing it, but right now we're not even trying it. Perhaps this is analogous to the radical mastectomy story...
"Specialists who start by trying to help gender-dysphoric children settle in their birth identities, rather than making a speedy switch, risk being labelled transphobes and forced out of their jobs."
DeleteWho are these specialists? I don't mean the ones 'forced out' (BTW, how can they get forced out? Many counselors are independent operators with solo or group practices...are their licenses suspended? If so that would be surprising since it's actually pretty tough for a doctor to lose his license). Can you show me a therapist or doctor whose had 100% of his or her pediatric patients make a "speedy switch"? I would be surprised to find a doctor who always 'switched' their pediatric patients. But then if even very 'pro-trans' doctors do not switch all of their patients, then that means even they see cases where they don't think a 'speedy switch' is in the patient's best interests. Leave aside the question of whether a 'switch' is even possible to get in US medical institutions just on the word of a single doctor, I suspect for surgery at least almost all hospitals and insurance would demand at least two different doctors concurring before allowing 'speedy switch' operations.
I agree entirely. I think my concern is that most people I talk to on this (or any) subject want to try their solution as broadly as possible, but are indignant about reasonable people with opposing views trying entirely different solutions. (This applies to left and right.) Letting a thousand flowers bloom seems like the approach most likely to produce the quickest results. Which is what everyone wants.
DeleteAs far as specialists, first I would consider The Economist to be a pretty reputable source, one that is not very prone to exaggeration. Meaning I'm inclined to treat it as prima facia evidence that what they say is happening is actually happening. As far as who these specialists are, they give this example:
DeleteIn 2015 Kenneth Zucker, a Canadian paediatrician specialising in gender dysphoria, was sacked and his clinic shut after a campaign by activists. His starting point had been to try to help gender-dysphoric children become more comfortable with their biological sex, and to wait and see if they changed their minds.
Now perhaps he's the only one, and perhaps it won't get any worse, but I'd be very surprised if either of those ended up being true.
As far as the 100% it doesn't need to be 100%, if the number of transgender children who will grow up to be transgender adults is less than 40% than anything over that is a child who had very serious surgery they didn't need, and that assumes that you somehow are able to identify the 40% correctly, which (also according to The Economist) no one has figured out how to do yet.
Surgery is the extreme option here, and I think it's informative to not consider it as the most common manifestation of treatment. I'm no expert in this field, but my understanding is that surgery is both rare, and not necessarily the end goal of most treatments that bias away from biological sex.
DeleteEven hormone replacement isn't just something patients are normally offered early on. My understanding is that simple counseling is the norm for most. And honestly, much of the discussion on this topic seems to be between those who urge counseling to encourage the patient to "just accept it" versus those thinking the advice should be to "fight it".
Why not allow patients and their parents to decide, and not force conformity to one side or the other?
I agree it's probably not the most common manifestation, but once again, we run into a dearth of understanding. I can find this article: http://www.businessinsider.com/sex-transition-plastic-surgery-statistics-2017-5 which claims that, "Roughly a third of trans folks have undergone some gender-transition related surgery" but based on the numbers of surgeries performed from the same article (3,256 in 2016 a 19% increase of 2015) Boonton is going to come along and claim that this vastly understates the number of transgender people in the country, and that the rate is probably closer to 10% or 5%, and I'd probably agree with him.
DeleteAlso if surgery isn't the most common option it's definitely the most visible. Which may lead to an availability bias where people for whom surgery is not the right option end up thinking it's the default. Again I think we're in agreement, there definitely should be more choice, and I think what choice does happen needs to be better informed, and less tied up in idealogical battles.
I understand the concern, and I guess maybe if kids could just wander into a clinic and emerge a couple hours later with rearranged genetalia I would be concerned, too. Maybe this reflects more my ignorance than anything, but my understanding is that it takes a lot of time during consultation with a physician and a psychologist (and if you're a minor with your parents, as well), combined with months of HRT before you're ready to go under the knife.
DeletePerhaps HRT is given too quickly, and it is not well-enough understood how powerful these treatments really are compared to other interactions you might have with medical treatments. (Kind of like how people KNOW chemo is some serious stuff, but hand them some HGH and they're like "sure, I guess I'll take a couple and hope for the best; dose is probably flexible here"). Honestly, HRT can be a pretty dramatic and irreversible change, as well. But again, you don't just wander into CVS and walk out with replacement hormones and a pack of Pringles. You can get the Pringles easy, but HRT requires more professional consultations.
I guess if your concern is, "But hey, what if the doctors and physchologists are all gung-ho for transitioning every kid who explores their identity a little during middle school? Wouldn't that potentially lead to lots of kids getting really messed up?" And I would say, yes, hypothetically, under these circumstances they are probably overdiagnosing a condition and they're going to ruin some people's lives.
That would be my hypothesis, but theirs would be one of resounding success. So if the parents are well-informed, and the kids aren't being pressured into it, and the whole process is being adequately documented for future analysis (that's really the hard part that nobody wants to do right) - then I am not going to stand in their way. I'm going to hope that in a few years when the data comes out we'll have a better understanding of what to do (or what not to do) to treat kids who come into the clinic.
If one of these kids' parents came to me and asked my opinion I'd recommend they go somewhere else - and I would hope there IS a different point of view they could choose, if they want to (that isn't being shut down). But the only thing we'll get by shutting down the over-zealous crowd is more constant complaining that "the reason this isn't working is that we haven't fully adopted it; we won't see positive results just by going part way, we have to be 100% there before we're going to see any positive data!"
That doesn't mean I just throw up my hands. Instead I work hard to ensure they're doing proper analysis so we get good data out of it in the long run. What about the individual kids who are harmed in the process of collecting all this data? This is going to sound heartless, but what happens with them during a period of treatment uncertainty isn't really my responsibility. That's their choice, and the choice of their parents. So long as everyone is entirely informed about what choice they are making, I think they should be allowed to make those choices. At this point, there's too much ideology in the way for us to make a good, informed decision on a population-wide level.
I don't know how long it takes from first visitation to actual surgery. I don't know how well informed most people or parents are. I don't know how powerful (or reversible) HRT is. I know that the article I quoted from said that puberty-blockers may have harmful side effects. I don't know how much ideological pressure there is to choose one course of action over another (I suspect quite a bit).
DeleteBut I suspect I'm not the only person who's in the dark about a lot of these questions and yet the number of surgeries continues to increase. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2018/02/28/transgender-surgeries-are-on-the-rise-says-first-study-of-its-kind/?utm_term=.1c02eeec8ba2
I guess what I'm really getting at is that absent a clear "best" choice. Taleb's via negativa should hold sway, eg we should avoid intervening, and so I'm alarmed when I catch any hint that:
"Specialists who start by trying to help gender-dysphoric children settle in their birth identities, rather than making a speedy switch, risk being labelled transphobes and forced out of their jobs."
Now maybe this isn't happening and The Economist is just wrong, or maybe it just happened to Kenneth Zucker and he had it coming, if so that's great, but if not, I think we should be concerned.
Taleb's idea about 'skin in the game' should trump this here. I find it hard to accept that huge numbers of people are casually throwing their bodies into surgery, often even without full insurance coverage, yet are not asking questions, thinking in depth about it, doing research etc. It doesn't follow that their decisions are right but the way I see it they are literally putting more than their skin in the game!
DeleteThe caution, I think, should come in judging the field and individuals in it given that most of us on this blog are going to go nowhere near as in depth into this topic as someone who has a transgendered kid or is trandgendered themselves. Remember the principle of subsidiary here.
This is a really tricky problem. If counselors are being forced out of the industry for first trying to settle the child into their birth gender, as The Economist says, then this is going to end in a lot of unhappy people. Being a teenager is tough, you've got all sorts of pressures going on, it's not a great time to be making permanent life altering decisions.
DeleteI looked up the statistics report for that Business Insider article. https://www.plasticsurgery.org/documents/News/Statistics/2016/plastic-surgery-statistics-full-report-2016.pdf I don't know how reliable these stats were, nbcnews reported that there were some questions about the stats (https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/u-s-gender-confirmation-surgery-19-2016-doctors-say-n762916). But they are what we have and should give us at least a ballpark figure.
According to that 13-19 year olds made up 229,000 out of 17.1 million cosmetic surgeries, or 1.3%. 3,256 'gender confirmation' surgeries would be .019% of all surgeries. If we assume that the 'gender confirmation' surgery percent was the same across all demographics, and I would bet that it's substantially lower for the 13-19 demographic, then that gives us about 43 'gender confirmation' surgeries for teenagers. I saw another statistic on the NBC news article, but again take this with a grain of salt. That said that only 15 of the 3,256 surgeries were 'lower' surgery, which means that basically none of them were performed on teenagers.
This is reassuring to me, as 'lower' surgery is the most irreversible. Hopefully we don't see these numbers go up, for teenagers at least.
If I were to have a child that experienced what I did I would want them to get some counseling first from a good counselor. Then I would be alright with them going on puberty blockers. Then, after a while, if they still felt like it I would let them do HRT.
At least on the forums I've been on, there seem to be a lot of people who are very happy with their HRT, and their surgery if they get it. But there is still a lot of angst about the whole thing. People wanting to feel right about their bodies but not wanting to let down the other people in their lives.
The question of reducing/eliminating the number of people experiencing gender dysphoria is an interesting one. It gets into questions of identity and what we perceive as 'valid' expressions of humanity. It's not just a question of whether it causes pain, there's also the question of whether it brings anything valuable.
ReplyDeleteI'm just going to call the experience of being transgender 'gender dysphoria', GD, for shorthand. GD brings with it different perspectives, as just about any human experience will. It shapes the individual and how they see the world. Who would I be without my GD? I don't know. We imagine ourselves surgically removing only the GD and leaving the underlying person intact. Maybe that would be possible with a grown person. If I were to take some medication and my GD disappeared entirely, I can imagine myself being pretty much the same, but how different would I be if I could have taken such a medication as a teenager?
Do TG people bring something unique and potentially valuable to the human experience? Is there a way to relieve the pain, but keep the unique and valuable things? It's not so much of a concern now but probably will be soon, as technology improves what other human experiences should we eliminate?
This quickly goes down a philosophical rabbit hole, but this gets into value drift and some of the ideas that trans-humanists and AI researchers worry about: How do we prevent value drift? I believe that for a lot of TG folks, talk of reducing or eliminating their experiences represents unacceptable value drift.
That does raise an interesting question though. I wonder if the conversation would change if instead of talking about 'reducing the number of TG individuals' we talked about 'making sure that everyone was born into the body that they felt they belonged in'.